"heinous and illegal acts" of torture.?

Spc. Charles Grane

Did he commit "heinous and illegal acts" of torture.?
Or did he in fact commit acts of depravity, disgusting acts of abuse and disrespected the human rights of other human beings !

Hussein Mutar and Ameen Said Sheikh testified in court that they were tortured by soldiers under Graners charge and by Graner him self .. When asked what that torture was Sheikh said ""They took off my clothes. They said certain things about my wife, my religion, They hit me in the back, my head. They took me into the bathroom and made me take a shower, and one told me he was going to rape me." Graner he said, "was laughing. He laughed. He was whistling. He was singing."

Mutar said they made them eat pork and make statements against their Muslim faith, and even drink alcohol .Mutar, testified that soldiers who worked under Graner forced him to strip, masturbate and climb atop a pyramid of other naked detainees.

Sheikh and Mutar testified that they entered Iraq from Syria heavily armed and on a religious jihad to fight Americans,they said Graner represented "people who are sick-minded. That Graner is a man that hurt his country, hurt his people,. I think he should receive punishment, God bless." He even said " Saddam didn't treat us like this " ?

Not that I condone any of the things listed here, But are they "heinous and illegal acts" of torture. ?

 

Well i think if i had been through that, i would call it torture..
It should be...

Acts of depravity, disgusting acts of abuse and disrespected the human rights of other human beings !

"heinous and illegal acts"

Is right..

Adding 'torture' makes it seem like it was sanctioned .. this man and whoever else took part are sick fucks.. Its a question of how far up and who you want to blame, as to how you interprete it ... Personaly i blame the individuals who took part and thats it .

 

By that reasoning Matthew, then even the last gasp justifications used by neo-cons for their illegal invasion and regime change falls apart as I would suspect you are rational enough to comprehend that any crimes against humanity cited against Saddam would have been carried out by a few peons here and there just as our scandalous acts were perpetrated.

So if you subscribe to the justification of invading a sovereign nation, bombing its cities and civilians to rubble and strewn limbs to exact "justice" on its leader(s), then why do you not feel that those at the very top of our administration (long exposed as having authorised such illegalities and indignities) should similarly receive due recompense?

Instead we see the principle revisionist madman soon to be confirmed Attorney General. Double standards are our national stock in trade, without doubt.

 

The New York Times has obtained 10 previously undisclosed e-mails, including attached photos, sent by Spc. Charles A. Graner Jr., now on trial in the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal, around November 2003.

In one of the graphic messages, titled “just another dull day at work,” Graner wrote, "The guys give me hell for not getting any pictures while I was fighting this guy,"referring to a photograph of a bound and naked detainee howling with pain, his legs bleeding.

One message referred to Take Your Children to Work Day with the comment, "how about send a bastard to hell day?" Attached was a photograph of a detainee's head bloodied beyond recognition.

Another photograph showed him stitching a cut over a prisoner’s eye. Graner wrote: "Things may have gotten a bit bad when we were asking him a couple of questions. O well."

Their prime directive was to "make 'em talk," and that came from the top. Obviously, the right people find the way to the right jobs, the right people look in the "right" other direction. Torture is a capital offense, isn't it? The admin might one day have to face the music for this one.

 

It is torture and whoever took part in these activities are sick individuals. While I agree that the blame goes all the way to the top, the individuals that carried out the actions should not be pardoned in any way. If idiotic sheep wouldn't conduct this torture (or this war) it wouldn't happen.

 

If making some one eat pork or drink alcohol, or even say nasty things about someone's wife family or religion is considered torture, we must make room in our vocabulary for another word to describe, whipping someone to death or putting cigarettes out on peoples skin or removal of testicals with out the use of anaesthetic and then forcing them to eat it. The list goes on !!!!!
The dictionary describes torture as:-
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish,

Should they be punished ? without question YES !!!!!
But was it torture ?
I see threatening behaviour, actual bodily assault, grievous bodily harm, religious persecution , Indecent assault ,, and the list goes on ! But I don't believe what I read constituted torture,

My fear is if we belittle the word to include the offences above, we will lose our ability to be disgusted and outraged when some one is accused of torture...... If I think making some one eat a ham sandwich compares to making someone eat someone else's faeces or drink urine.... as for calling people names and threatening them and their family, It's a little different, than say slowly suffocating someone child whilst the father is forced to watch.....
Graner should be punished, but let the punishment fit the crime !!! rather than put a show on for the rest of the world ......

 

yeah, I might agree with you, torture is not the appropriate word based on what the word has described in the past. Anyways it is abuse and still a very sick thing to abuse people sexually. Disgusting and shameful.

 

I think this guy was just a scapegoat for the real criminals at the top of the pyramid, like Mr. Alberto Gonzalez himself. I am not saying this Granger guy wasn't sick in the head, because I think he is. I just don't think it's right that the people taking all the blame were the ones ordered to commit this torture to begin with.

 

10 years !!!! at least he doesn't have to go back !! The jail sentence has probably saved his life .......
If I was in Iraq, I think I'd walk up to the first Iraqi I saw and force him to eat hot dog, then report my self for torturing an Iraqi, and do the time !!!!!


Justice has been served ?????

 

If you see Mr Bush as a Adolf Hitler figure , i would agree with what your saying (well your reasoning anyway).
It takes the actions of thousands to do the will of a few .. I don't persoanly see Mr bush and everyone else as this type of regime.. It is not the way i see it and if comparisons are made .. then it is the diffrence in rationale between you and i , that imho i disagree and think your rationale falls apart.

I think the ongoing looking into of 50+- prisons and detention centers , run by the military and outside contractors should hopefuly either show that it does indeed go all the way up to the top. Or they were given orders that did not in any way fall into the in a horrible sick and twisted means that we have all seen...

The pictures and the emails , depicting the boredom of some military personel his worrying .. The devil is in idle hands , as the saying goes ? I think it was a ring of equaly sick none military and military people .. within a few prisons .

I know it might be a sick thought, but investigators and intrested partys, might be trying to put the whole darn system on trial .. backed up by the actions of the few . In some twisted way the stupidity of this man and others might just be the best thing that could have happened ?

I think in this case it was a man trying to impress a woman and a woman impressing a man..

He says 'i have no regrets' thats the way a person who sees no wrongs thinks.. Their is always twisted people that don't see anyone diffrent from themselves as equal ... I don't personaly think it is widespread amongst all involved in prison duties .

 

Then you fail to comprehend the consistency of "principle" in examining the present situation. You also fail to appreciate what has long been revealed concerning the disposition of the US DoD and its chief, Rumsfeld, along with his quite demonstrably fascist neo-con cohorts Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, et al. who have repeatedly shown their presumption of being above any accountability to international law and the treaties and conventions of which it is comprised.

At the same time, let us recall Mr. Gonzales, soon to be US Attorney General, who labelled the Geneva Conventions "quaint" as he offhandedly dismissed their applicability to Washington's prosecution of its unilateralist war of aggression.

By all means, ignore the writing on the wall as the incremental consolidation of tyrannical, unaccountable power is achieved. For those who recognise the lessons and principles of history, the parallels are blatantly clear. Soon enough you will be forced to snap out of your cozy dismissals and see the Fourth Reich for what it truly is. Until then, enjoy your sanitised illusions.

 

Forcing people of the muslim faith to do things against their religion (drink alcohol, eat pork) and forcing them to masturbate and climb on top of eachother naked while all the time being physically abused is torture. I would consider myself being tortured if I were in their situation.

 

Well you enjoy you way of thinking as well .. if it works for you that is fine.. It does not mean either of us is right or wrong in anyway ..

I just find it horrid comparing anything to the Natzis and the second world war ?.

Find me some concentration camps find me the Hitler youth .. find me a VW beetle find me the upsurge of job creation .. find me the the autobarnes ?

Yeah we can compare almost anything to anything after the facts ?? It is almost a cliche ... Enjoy your horrid way of thinking ?.

 

You speak once again of infrastructural trappings, I speak of the principle of illegal war of aggression, the villification of any who oppose the designs of those power, their recourse to secrecy and unaccountability (whilst increasingly pointing the finger at the corruption of other nations), the erosion of viable informed public discourse via a complicit (insulated) nationwide press and media, the blanket application of dehumanising terms such as "terrorist", "militant" or "insurgent" to describe the patriotic efforts of those who dare fight back against our patently colonialist aggressions, and many other facets of "PRINCIPLE" which liken this admin and those who support it to those against whom our predecessors fought WWII.

For the record, you need only look throughout the nation, in fundamentalist churches, highschools, civic groups, etc., to find the unquestioning, banner waving mindset of jingoistic support which is, again as regards the consistent application of "principle", the very corollary of the Hitler Youth.

As for concentration camps, begin with Gitmo, Bagram AFB, Abu Graib, etc. and ask yourself again what this admins demonstrated and quite well documented attitude is toward international law and conventions pertaining to the treatment of prisoners (most of whom, indeed, have already been revealed as being wrongfully imprisoned). That slippery slope alone exposes the criminal presumtion of unilateral superiority which characterises the present regime.

 

Did you notice i slipped in a few good things in their as well ? You did not ? .
This is the rationale that i can't fathom .
Continualy holding the Natziesque Fourth reich (comparisons) kinda view point and ignoring the vast amount of good things, makes the arguement unfair.

Call them what you wish ? those that continue to fight and not put down their guns have no intention of doing so. They i think say we give you the chance to turn to the muslim faith if you don't we can kill you ? How diplomatic . And the media don't hold your point of view so of course they seem il informed in comparison .

Patriotic yes , but taking away books ? The burning of books ? No..
The attempt at altering a few words in a particular book does not hold up your case ?.. Its is their if you want, and a vast amount of information that can be ordered from a world wide libiary via the internet is their also. If you wish to hold particular views nowadays you can't blame the schools it is your own personal prejudices ?.

How did i know that you would bring up Abu Graib ..? Ok point out the trials that happened against military or non military persons within such death camps Hitler had set up to systematical kill millions of people.. No comparison at all ?.

 

A few token scapegoat trials of low ranking personnel are the sort of show trial that will neither end the criminality of those ordering it from the top nor the disregard for international law that it represents.

Of course it impresses you, as intended, sufficiently that you think there has been any actual accountability for such actions. Such is the power of the mainstream media propaganda aparatus being orchestrated by Rove and the lackies over at the OSP.

For those wielding the power, the comparison remains legitimate.

 

Did you miss my earlier post ?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4807-2004May31.html

Incompetence on the part of the goverment i can agree with .

I await a legitimate person that you can give as a example of ANY person put on trial other than for NOT following orders ?. I appreciate the response but you missed half of what i said ? you usualy have a comment for more points ? (even if its just to say people are living in a sanatised illusion) Time ? ok thats fine ... Avoidance ? well then

I can't say anymore realy ?.

 

You think that's torture do you ? so what do you call pulling finger nails out ,what do you call having red hot metal bars slowly pushed up your anus ? what do you call slowly beating a child to death in front of it's mother ? what do you call pouring boiling water down someone's throat ? what do you call cutting off someone's fingers one by one , not to make him talk, but to make his father talk ? Making some one eat pork is not very nice !!!! What's the worst that will happen ? he'll be a bit unwell ? tell that to the mothers and fathers who lost their children to real torture !! , or tell them , you think you had it bad , what with your child being butchered in front of you ,this one poor guy was forced to eat a bacon sandwich and drink a beer ?

 

I don't think it's torture either. The actions at the beginning of your post are. It's still wrong of course.

 

They are getting beaten, shamed, and forced to do things outside their belief system (which is very important to them, they take their beliefs mush more seriously than we do in our culture). Made to eat out of toilets and sit in their own feces. Those other things above are also torture, but those aren't the only methods of torture out there. All these things are torture. If I were jailed up in a nasty cell being forced to masturbate while all these men watched, was beaten and bloodied when being questioned, and threatened to be raped and killed, I would consider myself being tortured. I think most people would feel the same way.