hare krishna

Dear YogaLady,

Thanks again for another beautiful piece of conversation.

I am sure we are also changing,slowly but surely. Are we losers ? Surely not. We are all gainers and even if the impression of losing is given we do not mind.

That is the beauty of God and godly matters. More we think and practise the advised means and ways more we advance. It does not matter whether, at the end of the quest in this life time, we become 100% successful or not. We definitely make advancement and become all better and beautiful persons.

His Divine Grace,A.C.(Abhaya Charan) Bhaktivedanta Prabhupad's life tells us about the truth of the above facts. His life was a perfect example of devotion,knowledge, tolerance, patience,humility and surrender.

His personal life was a troubled one, he had suffered negligence,cheating and had no money. Only faith in His Guru's words, total devotion and surrender gradually proved the old saying that He does everything and we are just instruments in His hands.

Myself being a Bengali from Calcutta I know just a little about Him. I remember how He had spent His days in Calcutta(Now Kolkata) after His Guru's death. Despite lots of suffering and having no money He used to come to the Brigade Parade Ground daily early in the morning and chant/sing "Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare." He did not know what else to do to fulfil His Guru's wish. Morning time lots of people, including the rich and elite class, used to come for jogging and morning walk. They used to wonder looking at His towering personality but did not know what His aim was.

They say that He had magnetic power of attracting people meaning that once anybody talked to Him to find out what He was doing there everyday, got glued to Him. He was vastly learned and had already attained self-realization. Slowly but surely the Divine Grace started working for Him, things started happening like magic.

Out of all those who used to come and sit with Him, there was one gentleman who was stationed at the Calcutta office of Scindia Steam Navigation Co. Ltd (A very big and reputed shipping Company of Bombay at that time.)One day he came to know about His mission and was so highly impressed that he spoke to the Chairperson of Scindia Steam Navigation, Mrs.Sumati Morarji . Mrs Morarji, a highly religious lady, wanted to talk to Srila Prabhupad. She arranged for His journey to Bombay and stay over there. On the day of appointment when Srila Prabhupad met Mrs Morarji and spoke to her, grace,love and compassion of God showered not only on Him but on the whole mankind. She was flabbergasted and amazed after talking to Him. She made all arrangements for Him and on one auspicious day He started for the USA as a supernumerary on one of Scindia's vessels. Rest is history.

I am sure many of you knew this story but I just could not resist the temptation of telling it again just to say how God's compassion and love work for us. For everything there are tests for us in any walk of life, same way He also tests us. If we pass we get soaked and drowned in His love and compassion which we call blissful.

With lots of love............Kumar.

 

I am certainly glad you posted this story Kumar! It is my first time hearing and enjoying it.

And as you suggested (and I think its a wonderful idea)...a song for us all:

"Awaiting On You All"- George Harrison

You don't need no love in
You don't need no bed pan
You don't need a horoscope or a microscope
The see the mess that you're in
If you open up your heart
You will know what I mean
We've been polluted so long
Now here's a way for you to get clean

By chanting the names of the lord and you'll be free
The lord is awaiting on you all to awaken and see
Chanting the names of the lord and you'll be free
The lord is awaiting on you all to awaken and see

You don't need no passport
And you don't need no visas
You don't need to designate or to emigrate
Before you can see Jesus
If you open up your heart
You'll see he's right there
Always was and will be
He'll relieve you of your cares

By chanting the names of the lord and you'll be free
The lord is awaiting on you all to awaken and see
Chanting the names of the lord and you'll be free
The lord is awaiting on you all to awaken and see

You don't need no church house
And you don't need no Temple
You don't need no rosary beads or them books to read
To see that you have fallen
If you open up your heart
You will know what I mean
We've been kept down so long
Someone's thinking that we're all green

And while the Pope owns 51% of General Motors
And the stock exchange is the only thing he's qualified to quote us
The lord is awaiting on you all to awaken and see
By chanting the names of the lord and you'll be free
-------------

And one extra song...that I just heard for the first time and I like

It Is "He" (Jai Sri Krishna) - George Harrison
Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe


He whose eyes have seen
What our lives have been
And who we really are
It is 'He'
Jai sri krishna

Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe

He whose sweetness flows
To anyone of those
That cares to look His way
See His smile
Jai sri radhe

Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe

He who is complete
Three worlds at His feet
Cause of every star
It is 'He'
Jai sri krishna

Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe
------------

I hope you enjoy them!

 

an add on to you story Kumar...


on his journey from India on the Jaladuta, he suffered through two heart attacks

a testament to his courage and conviction that he continued in his quest to spread the gospel of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

 

"an add on to you story Kumar...


on his journey from India on the Jaladuta, he suffered through two heart attacks

a testament to his courage and conviction that he continued in his quest to spread the gospel of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu"
............ChiefCowPie.


Dear ChiefCowPie,

Thank you so much. I knew the name of the vessel but could not remember.
However, I was not at all aware of the heart attacks. You have very truly said that it was a testament to His courage and conviction that He continued in His quest to spread the gospel of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

Thanks again, dear friend.

With love............Kumar.

 

All these wonderful posts!!!

That does it - my turn. LOL

Though I can't find an official quote, I have often been told that Prabhupada said George gave Krishna a home in the material world, and Krishna will give George a home in the spiritual world.

Here's a few qotes I found though:

Srila Prabhupada, Arrival Address, London, July 7, 73 “...given the facility of assembling in this nice house, this good boy George Harrison, we must give him all glories. We must be thankful to him that he has given us the facility, and Krsna will bless him more and more.”

Srila Prabhupada Lecture, London, Aug 26, 1973 "So we are opening centers all over the world. In America we have got about fifty centers, and in your Europe we have got about half a dozen or more than, dozen centers, including France, Germany, Amsterdam, England, and Ireland, Scotland. So this is a new center opened by us. This house has been very kindly given to us by George Harrison. He is a nice boy. He is taking to Krsna consciousness."

Prabhupada Letter to Syamaasundara, Los Angeles, May, 4, 1970 “Please offer my blessings to Sriman George and all the other Prabhus there. I am marking that George has the serving spirit, and that is making him advance gradually.” - Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada Letter to Syamasundara, Hamburg, Aug 31, 1969 "I am very glad to know that Sriman George Harrison is nicely cooperating with your endeavors, and this action of him will not go in vain. Any little bit of service rendered to Krishna does not go in vain, so I am sure George will be benefited in the matter of Krishna Consciousness without doubt. Please convey my thanks to him for his willing cooperation with our men."



YL

 

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

I am glad that you liked the story(Duly completed by dear ChiefCowPie) of A.C.BhaktiVedanta Prabhupad.

Thank you for putting the wonderful songs here. Pray, nobody misses to read.
Second song is also very nice and equally good. In proper ambience, during meditation , this song must be wonderful.

With love........Kumar.

 

"All these wonderful posts!!!

That does it - my turn. LOL

Though I can't find an official quote, I have often been told that Prabhupada said George gave Krishna a home in the material world, and Krishna will give George a home in the spiritual world.

Here's a few qotes I found though:

Srila Prabhupada, Arrival Address, London, July 7, 73 “...given the facility of assembling in this nice house, this good boy George Harrison, we must give him all glories. We must be thankful to him that he has given us the facility, and Krsna will bless him more and more.”

Srila Prabhupada Lecture, London, Aug 26, 1973 "So we are opening centers all over the world. In America we have got about fifty centers, and in your Europe we have got about half a dozen or more than, dozen centers, including France, Germany, Amsterdam, England, and Ireland, Scotland. So this is a new center opened by us. This house has been very kindly given to us by George Harrison. He is a nice boy. He is taking to Krsna consciousness."

Prabhupada Letter to Syamaasundara, Los Angeles, May, 4, 1970 “Please offer my blessings to Sriman George and all the other Prabhus there. I am marking that George has the serving spirit, and that is making him advance gradually.” - Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada Letter to Syamasundara, Hamburg, Aug 31, 1969 "I am very glad to know that Sriman George Harrison is nicely cooperating with your endeavors, and this action of him will not go in vain. Any little bit of service rendered to Krishna does not go in vain, so I am sure George will be benefited in the matter of Krishna Consciousness without doubt. Please convey my thanks to him for his willing cooperation with our men."



YL "

Dear YogaLady,

Wonderful post! Thank you.

Refering to the two songs by G.H.(Inserted by SvgGrdnBeauty) I can only say that everything came so true for G.H. Definitely all his practices and blessings worked for him to make him a picture of devotion and humility and through him we also got benefited. We are also advancing gradually.

With love........Kumar.

 

"This has been a wonderful thread to read. I just wanted to say that I can really see the kinship and unity between us here and I to in recent times have come to understand the unity of religions. I grew up as a Southern Baptist.This year I studied Hinduism and Buddhism and I truely discovered Jesus and the true message and that all religions lead us to the same almight God. I respect, love , and revere Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad, all the aspects of God I have learned to see the light within the faiths that all shine together! As was said earlier about love, I love you guys as well.

Ben. "

Dear Cloudminerva,

Your views made me so happy! Thank you. Wish everybody could say like you, "I have learned to see the light within the faiths that all shine together."

When true love for God comes then the biased views go away and we rediscover everything. It is said that God is first and then come religions and all other things. Unfortunately for most of us it works the other way. For those love comes or develops first for religions and then God.

Wish you all the best brother. Please have faith and go ahead, Lord Jesus knows best for all of us. If we surrender, He shall take care of us and take us to the realm of blissful light.

With lots of love and prayers.......Kumar.

 

Yes...that song is very wonderful for meditation. Actually...its very good for driving...I first heard it when I was in my car on the way to pick up a friend and I kept listening to it on repeat because I couldn't get enough of it...

I indeed do enjoy all of the stories that have been posted on here...I am actually recieving my first experience of reading the books of A.C.BhaktiVedanta Prabhupada, as soon as it comes in at the library. The book, which happens to be Bhagavad-gita As It Is, is the only book by him that our library carries...which is sad...but I am still happy nonetheless that at least one of his books is carried there...and I can't wait to read it when it comes.

Much love to you all!
Nicole

 

hey, Nicole:
It's really amazing for me to read that you're feeling so into reading Bhagavadgita Well, that is the first book I've read(and still reading). They say we should start with that one.
Maybe this could help you out:
http://www.krishna.com/newsite/gita_frameset.html
http://www.krishna.com/newsite/main.php?id=33

 

Thankies for the sites. I'll be sure to check them out! Yes, I am quite interested in reading it...I have to stick it somewhere in the 6 books I have to read for school this summer...but never fear...I WILL read it!

 

Hi,

Just wanted to say that many of the "original" books by Prabhupada have been changed. I dont know if that site has the originals or the changed ones, at all. They could be fine, simply I dont know. There is a site that clearly has the original, unchanged Bhagavad-gita by Prabhupada. If you want the url, its:

http://www.asitis.com


YL

 

Hey there Kumar,

Only a few minutes online right now but wanted to say thanks for all your kind words.

Maybe I can get back on later, and post some cool stuff too.


YL

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s relationship with Bipin Bihari Goswami

The name that is remarkable for its absence in the paramparä given by Siddhanta Saraswati is that of Bipin Bihari Goswami (1850-1919), the initiating spiritual master of Kedarnath Datta, Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

Born 3 Sravan 1850, Bipin Bihari was twelve years Bhaktivinoda’s junior. He was born in the family of Goswamis whose seat is in Baghna Para, between Kalna and Nabadwip in the Burdwan district. This is the seat of Ramachandra Goswami, the grandson of Vamsivadanananda Thakur, an associate of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and the adopted son and disciple of Jahnava Thakurani, the wife of Nityananda Prabhu.

Married at 13, Bipin Bihari moved to Hooghly district. He became closely involved with the Brahmo Samaj, causing a reaction from other members of the Baghna Para family, who insisted that he move back to Kalna. There he began associating with the famous “siddha,” Bhagavan Das Babaji, one of the most notable Vaishnavas of the time. He studied the Vaishnava scriptures with Bhagavan Das for nine years. He also studied with another prominent renounced Vaishnava, Nabadwip’s Chaitanya Das Babaji. He took initiation from Yajneshwar Goswami in 1872.

Bipin Bihari began writing articles almost immediately after initiation and submitted articles on Gaudiya Vaishnavism to various magazines both in Bengali (Prema-pracäriëé, Saàväda-pürëa-candrodaya) and English (The Education Gazette). He made his reputation in 1877-1880 by giving lectures on the Bhägavata and attracted the attention of the king of Burdwan, Mahatap Chand. Aftab Chand, Mahatap Chand’s successor, also regularly invited Bipin Bihari to the Burdwan palace.

Bipin Bihari Goswami wrote a number of books. The first, written in Sanskrit, Harinämämåta-sindhu, was published in 1879. His major work, Daça-müla-rasa (1898), is over a thousand pages long and covers the gamut of Gaudiya Vaishnava doctrine and practice. Other works were Arcanämåta-sägara (1883), Madhura-milana, Sära-saìgraha, Bhäva-saìgraha, Hari-bhakti-taraìgiëé (1902) and a number of Sanskrit and Bengali poems and songs.

Kedarnath Datta and his wife both took initiation from Bipin Bihari Goswami in 1879, after three years of exchanging letters. Bhaktivinoda Thakur himself summarized his initiation from his guru in his autobiographical letter to his son Lalita Prasad in 1896.

quote: I had been searching for a suitable guru for a long time, but had not found one, so I was feeling disturbed. Whenever I met someone in whom I could have a little faith, when I studied his teachings and character, I would lose whatever little faith I had. I was quite worried, but Prabhu eradicated these worries in a dream. In that dream, I had a hint of what would happen and when day came, I felt joyful. A day or two later, Gurudeva wrote me a letter saying, “I will come soon and give you initiation.” When he came and performed the initiation rituals, I became cheerful. From that day on the sin of meat eating vanished from my heart and I began to feel a little compassion toward all beings. ​

Bipin Bihari and Bhaktivinoda cooperated in the publication of Sajjana-toñaëé, which first appeared in 1882. Many articles by Bipin Bihari appeared there, as well as a translation of Vishnu-sahasra-nama. In January 1886, he arranged for his disciple to be given the title Bhaktivinoda in Baghna Para itself in a ceremony at the Baladeva Krishna temple.

Bhaktivinoda mentions his spiritual master’s name in several places in his own writings to offer him respects, as is appropriate Vaishnava etiquette for an author. These appear in works published in 1893 (Siddhi-lälasä of Géta-mälä), at the end of his commentary on the Chaitanya Charitamrita (1894) and in Bhagavatarka-marici-mala in 1901, one of the Thakur’s last works.

The two texts from Giti-mala are particularly interesting, as they indicate the siddha name of Bipin Bihari, which is Vilasa Manjari.

quote: When will Vilasa Manjari and Ananga Manjari [Jahnava Mata] see me and, being merciful, speak the follow essential words?

O Vilasa Manjari, Ananga Manjari and Rupa Manjari, please notice me and accept me at your feet, bestowing on me the essence of all perfection? ​

In both of these songs, Bhaktivinoda follows the classical tradition established by Narottam Das of praying to his spiritual master in his siddha form as a manjari. It is thus clear that the siddha-pranali etc. Shukavak has shown in his work that Bhaktivinoda follows the Rasa-räja concept of worship that was developed in the early days of the Baghna Para line.

Bhaktivinoda Thakur also offers heartfelt prayers Kalyana-kalpa-taru for the association of Srimati Ananga Manjari in the spiritual world, showing furthermore a strong affinity for the Jahnava Mata, the original preceptor of the line of preceptors of which Bipin Bihari Goswami was a member.

Cooperation between Bhaktivinoda Thakur and his spiritual master continued on other levels to the very end of the former’s active career as a writer and preacher, which may be said to have ended in about 1907, the date of his last published work. Bipin Bihari participated in the meeting of dignitaries in Krishananagar in 1893, launching the project establishing Chaitanya’s birthplace in Mayapur. His magnum opus, Dasa-mula-rasa, written in 1898, not only quotes a verse written by Bhaktivinoda in 1896, but seems to have been inspired by it. In his autobiographical notes to that work, Bipin Bihari proudly mentions Kedarnath Datta as his disciple.

I have never seen any evidence that Bhaktivinoda Thakur ever said anything negative or dismissive about Bipin Bihari Gosvami..

Was this relationship ever disrupted?

The above gives what appears to be the very image of a perfectly harmonious guru-disciple relationship, but for a number of issues that come up in later days. The classical statement of this position is given by Rüpa Vilasa Dasa:

quote: Vipina-vihari Gosvami initially enjoyed a very sweet relationship with the Thakura, but later he is said to have been neglected by the Thakura due to a disagreement about the position of Raghunätha däsa Gosvämé. He also assisted the Öhäkura in his preaching work, but his spiritual advancement was not on the same level as the “Commander-in-chief of the Vaiñëavas,” as Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji came to be called... ​

This proposition is riddled with misconceptions. Those who follow in the line of Siddhanta Saraswati find it necessary to explain why the initiating spiritual master of Bhaktivinoda Thakur is not a part of their disciplic succession, as Siddhanta Saraswati may have felt it necessary to reject Bipin Bihari Goswami, but how to explain it if Bhaktivinoda Thakur did not do so?

Saraswati’s disciples adopt his concept of prioritizing teaching (siksha) over formal ordination (diksha) as a sign of relationship, thus leading them to prioritize Jagannath Das over Bipin Bihari in Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s life. This goes deeply against the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition established by Jiva Goswami. At the time Bhaktivinoda was living, the positions of the siksha and diksha gurus would have been complementary, not exclusive. Even if Bhaktivinoda considered Jagannath to be more advanced than his own spiritual master, this does not affect his disciplic relationship with Bipin Bihari Goswami. There can only be one initiating guru, unless there is a sign of complete destitution from the spiritual path. There appears to be no evidence of this.

Thus any statements that Bhaktivinoda considered Jagannath Das Babaji to be his real spiritual master, for instance, by taking vesh from him (another misconception, by the way), or because Jagannath helped him to discover the place of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s appearance, or that called him Vaishnava-sarvabhauma have absolutely nothing to do with the relative importance of the two guru relationships. Sastra never sanctions distancing oneself from or rejecting a diksha guru unless the guru is seriously fallen or has become a non-Vaishnava.

Accusations that Bipin Bihari was engaged in some less than exemplary behavior are hearsay (smoking, etc. – see Nrisingha).

 

The Raghunath Das Goswami Issue

Generally, a more significant claim is that Bhaktivinoda Thakur rejected Bipin Bihari because he had taken a stance on the Raghunath Das Goswami issue need to be taken seriously and we shall examine this case. The time and place that Saraswati Thakur discovered this "error" in Bipin Bihari's understanding came at the famous Balighai meeting, which took place on Bhadra 22, 1318 (September 1911).

Here is the way Narasingha Maharaj describes that event:

quote: In 1911 there was an famous assembly of scholars held in Medinpur (Bengal) wherein the topic of debate was to be on “Brahmin and Vaishnavas.” Bipin Bihari Goswami was present at that assembly and, as already known, he would side with the brahmana community in the platform that brahmana Vaishnavas were automatically superior to non-Brahmin Vaishnavas, due to a brahmana being born in a higher caste. Bhaktivinode Thakura was also invited to attend that assembly. The conflict between he and Bipin Bihari was destined. Bhaktivinoda Thakur - not wanting to take a position of confronting and attempting to defeat his “diksha guru” in a public forum declined to attend the meeting on the plea of bad health. In his place he sent Sarasvati Thakur (age 37) to represent the Gaudiya Vaisnava Siddhanta in the line of Sri Rupa and Raghunath Das Goswami, as per the teachings of Mahaprabhu. We all know what happened in the meeting.” ​

In the “Baghnapara Sampradaya” book referred to the same incident, Kanan Bihari Goswami makes the following interesting statement: “He [Bipin Bihari Goswami] defeated the scriptural considerations of the Smarta pandits and demonstrated the superiority of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.” Evidently, there seems to be some misunderstanding. Both traditions seem to hold that their man was defending the same position.

quote: Bhaktivinoda Thakura did for sometime show formal respect to Bipin Bihari Goswami. But when the Goswami disrespected Srila Raghunatha dasa Goswami by thinking that he can give blessings to Raghunatha dasa, the prayojana-acarya, because Raghunatha dasa was from a “lower caste”, the Thakur distanced himself more from Bipin Bihari Goswami.” ​

The evidence for this supposed statement by Bipin Bihari Goswami about Raghunath Das Goswami is also missing. There is evidence, however, for a statement of this type being made by one disciple of Bipin Bihari Goswami, a young zamindar by the name of Choudhary Jadabendranandan. Perhaps this got twisted into a rumor, which has now become a “fact” due to being put in writing. Since Bipin Bihari Goswami spoke strongly at the Midnapur debate that Vaishnavas were superior to Brahmins, this supposed statement becomes even more doubtful.

At the present time, I have no real understanding of what events generated the crisis that led to this particular meeting, but the issue of Raghunath Das Goswami keeps coming up. All Vaishnavas are agreed that a Vaishnava is superior to a Brahmin in the karma kanda. There are, however, some subtleties that have arisen in the course of time that were objected to by reformers like Siddhanta Saraswati. These were principally the incursion of caste conventions into Gaudiya Vaishnavism. This will require something of a detour into other matters, but which are not without relevance to the subject at hand.

Of the six Goswamis, Raghunath Das Goswami was the only one who was not born in the Brahminical caste. He was also the first person known to have worshiped the Giridhari shila, which was given to him by Lord Chaitanya himself. Why did he worship Giridhari instead of Shalagram, like Rupa Goswami or Gopal Bhatta? Some consider this to be exemplary behavior on his part, setting an example, of putting Shalagram worship, like the Gayatri mantra and sacred thread, as not being desirable for Vaishnavas of a lower class. As with the wearing of saffron cloth, the standards of behavior of the associates of Mahaprabhu are considered law that stands above scripture. Thus, though scripture approves the worship of Shalagram by non-Brahmin Vaishnavas, the maryädä followed by most Gaudiyas not born in the Brahmin caste is that they do not do so. The usual reference is found in Jiva Goswami's commentary to Bhagavata-purana (3.33.6). He there states that there is no need for a non-Brahmin Vaishnava to perform the savana-yajna, even though the verse clearly states there he is so so free from sin that he is "eligible" to do so. Jiva interprets this to mean that a low-caste Vaishnava is more revered than a Brahmin, but that this verse does not specifically permit him to act as a karma-kanda Brahmin. The primary reason for this is that is such sacrifices are specifically outside the scope of a Vaishnava's duties. Vishwanath Chakravarti (himself a Brahmin) has elaborated further on this point to some degree, stating that since such activities are lower on the spiritual hierarchy, they are not to be taken up by even Brahmin Vaishnavas.

In other words, the position of both Jiva and Vishwanath was that the social status quo was not to be touched by one’s Vaishnavism, which was internal. Siddhanta Saraswati’s Daiva Varnashram ideas were radically opposed to this vision, as he tried to actually democratize the Brahminical function and open it, so to speak, to people from all castes and races.

Some people have taken the position that Bipin Bihari expressed the opinion that he, as a Brahmin, was in a position to bless Raghunath, as a Shudra. This kind of statement is obviously inflammatory. All evidence indicates that Raghunath, as a humble Vaishnava, observed the social protocol of the time and would have offered respects to a Brahmin. There is external protocol and inner spiritual achievement. The external protocol is based on social position, not on inner worth. Hari Das Thakur observed the protocols of Jagannath Puri; despite being universally recognized as a man who was as holy, if not more so than the Brahmins who served Jagannath, he never attempted to enter the temple there.

No doubt caste prestige and position are dangerous spiritually and also lead to social abuse. From a Marxist perspective, the only way that the lower caste or casteless Vaishnava could gain a modicum of social prestige was to become a renunciate, in other words, to take himself out of the social situation and all its consequent worldly privileges. This critique is separate and distinct from those found in the scriptures, where the issue is whether a lower caste Hindu can enhance himself socially (and by extension his family) by becoming a Vaishnava. As the Vaishnava is supposed to be indifferent to Varnashram, elevation to Brahminical duties through his religious activities or spiritual achievements is clearly counterindicated.

Thus if Bipin Bihari Goswami followed the traditions of the sampradaya as taught by Jiva and Vishwanath, he can hardly be condemned for being unworthy or to be rejected, even if the egalitarian position is considered more just.

Bipin Bihari rejected Bhaktivinoda?

Finally, an important claim that appears to be corroborated by Claims that Bipin Bihari Goswami rejected Bhaktivinoda because of preaching lies about the birthplace of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

The only information I have of this is from a secondary source by the abovementioned Kanan Bihari Goswami:

Many caste goswamis objected to Sri Mayapur (which they called Miapur) being called the original birthsite of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Bipin Bihari Goswami at that time rejected Bhaktivinoda’s preaching in a small newspaper of his own called Gauranga-sevaka Patrika in 1919, even though in 1891 he had participated in its establishment.

What is curious is that this was done posthumously (BVT died in 1914), in a time when Siddhanta Saraswati was preaching vigorously in favor of the Mayapur Yogapith, especially in opposition to the counter-discovery of another birthplace on the other side of the Ganges.

One thing that is well known is that there was a lot of politics between different groups of Gaudiya Vaishnavas over the location of the actual birthsite of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, even before the Gaudiya Math was started. After the disappearance of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in 1914 these political controversies became quite shrill, and there were nasty exchanges going on.

One last point is the statement is that Bhaktivinoda “did not imbibe any of the conceptions of Bipin Bihari Goswami,” particularly one of the matters that are central, namely the relative importance of chanting the Holy Names in contrast to the stress on siddha-praëäli given by Bipin Bihari Goswami.” This of course is nonsense, both in that Bhaktivinoda did stress the siddha-praëäli in at least three of his books, Jaiva-dharma, Caitanya-çikñämåta and Harinäma-cintämaëi. Nevertheless, until an in-depth study of Bipin Bihari’s writings is done, no one can make any authoritative statements on this matter. From all indications, however, from 1880 up until at least 1898, the two worked harmoniously.

 

I know that many, probably most, of Prabhupada's godbrothers did not like what Prabhupada did, or his success. They constantly caused him trouble, so I'm not going to get into who said what, when, where, that his godbrothers would fault find with him about. Prabhupada came right out and said his godbrothers were envious of him. He was the only one willing to cross an ocean or get two heart attacks in order to follow the insturction of his guru maharaja, and to save us, while the others remained nicely living where they were. So if you dont mind, I'm not going to analyze those last two posts and will stick with Prabhupada and what he said. I only mentioned the book changes becuase they were done by Prabhupada's own disciples (who have been criticized by many for it) and not because it had anything to do with Prabhupada's various godbrothers and their branches. This is getting too political for me. I'm just a simple follower of Prabupada. I think George Harrision was too.


YL

 

Here's part of a conversation I found between George Harrison and Srila Prabhupada. (Brings feelings of bliss IMHO.)


(Prabhupada is very hoarse)
George Harrison: How do you feel?
Prabhupada: I have old man's disease, cough and cold, so coughing. But still, work is going on, and I shall complete eighty years this month. September, eighty-one. So now, due to age, it is becoming little difficult.
George Harrison: Yes.
Prabhupada: Anyway, by the grace of Krsna.... So how are you?
George Harrison: Quite good.
Prabhupada: Chanting is going on?
George Harrison: Yes.
Prabhupada: Thank you. That is our life and soul. Grhe va vanete thake, 'ha gauranga' bole dake. Wherever you live, it doesn't matter, chant Hare Krsna. That's all. That is our only support. So bring food here.
Jayatirtha: We should have the lunch here?
Prabhupada: Yes.
George Harrison: All the devotees are looking really good.
Prabhupada: Eh?
George Harrison: The devotees are looking great. Strong.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. Phalena pariciyate. By the result, one has to study. Yesterday, one devotee's father and mother came, Hari-sauri. She and his father were very pleased to see him healthy, bright.
Mukunda: They hadn't seen him for six years.
Prabhupada: Six years, yes. So we are inviting everyone, "Come here. Such a nice house given by George (laughs). You live here comfortably, eat nicely, and chant Hare Krsna." We don't want any factory work.
George Harrison: No.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Simply kartal and mrdanga. Still, people do not come. They'll prefer to go the factory, whole day work in the hell. (laughs) They prefer.
George Harrison: I suppose some day the whole of the world will just be chanting in the country.
Prabhupada: That is not possible, but if some of the leading men, they take it seriously, then others will follow. Just like in our book, your signature is there, "Oh, George Harrison. Yes." They take it without any consideration. Krsna book. Yad yad acarati sresthas tad tad evetaro janah. If the leading man does something, then his followers also do. This is the way. So if some of the leading men of the world, they take this movement seriously, then people will be happy. There's no doubt about it. You have come alone, without any associate?
George Harrison: Just on my own.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
George Harrison: It took me a while to find it. They're always building new roads everywhere and change the whole countryside. So I got a little lost.
Prabhupada: You came here twice, right?
George Harrison: Yes, I've been here three times. Where will you be in India when you go back to India?
Prabhupada: Most probably in Bombay. You have been in my Bombay?
George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay. Yes, Bombay and Vrndavana when they were just building.
Prabhupada: Oh, Vrndavana, if you come there, stay for some time.
George Harrison: Yes, well, ah, this December...
Prabhupada: We have got very nice houses, both in Bombay and Vrndavana. And Mayapur also. Wherever you like. You will not be very uncomfortable.
George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay for a wedding. Some friends are getting married.
Prabhupada: When?
George Harrison: December the fifth, I think.
Prabhupada: Very nice season in Bombay. Best time.
George Harrison: You know, I think you met Laksmi Shankar, lady singer? Her daughter, who is also a singer, Viji, Viji Sri Shankar, and she's marrying a South Indian violin player, L. Shankar.
Prabhupada: He's also Shankar?
George Harrison: Well, he's called L. Shankar. You know that South India they have a funny way around them, they have like a surname. He's just called L. Shankar. His brother is called L. Subhramanyam.
Devotee (1): George says he wants to spend some time in Vrndavana.
George Harrison: I was only there for about thirty-six hours last time.
Prabhupada: We have got now very good centers. Another gentleman, he's offering us a very good place at Mahabalesvara. That's one of the famous India stations. A very nice climate. So you can come and stay there. We have got now many good centers.
George Harrison: I'll come and see if you're in Bombay, because I'll be near where the temple is.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bombay is just like garden. As good as your place here. No. Not so big. It is seventeen acres, and Bombay is five. Just go on. (prasadam being served) Give him whatever you have got to give. But don't give much. When he wants something more.... Waste not, want not. Give more, that preparation, you should give more. (laughter) That is called (indistinct). You can bring it, prasada.
George Harrison: I'll just wash my hands.
Prabhupada: You can wash here. The sink is there. Here is also water. You can put the bowls outside, here, so that there will be sufficient place. Our Indian system is like this. That's all right. Sit down, you also sit down.
George Harrison: I see you've done new books. You've been so busy, there's so many books.
Prabhupada: Yes. There are already fifty-four, and another at least thirty books I have to finish before my death. (laughs) That I am.... Give him a puri. Where is Ravi Shankar?
George Harrison: He's in.... I think he's in New York. He'll be here the first of August, and then I think he's...
Prabhupada: He has got his house there? In New York?
George Harrison: No, just a house in Benares. Benares. He doesn't have anything. He just stays in hotels.
Prabhupada: I thought in Washington somebody told me that George Washing..., George Harrison has got his house here.
George Harrison: Yes, he had a little house here, but he...
Prabhupada: No, you have got your house in Washington?
George Harrison: No.
Prabhupada: No. Now we can begin.
George Harrison: Okay, Hare Krsna.
Gurudasa: Nimbu-pani?
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. You give him two more samosas, he likes it. So now you can begin also. Yes. All the boys and girls are so nicely qualified for Krsna's service.
George Harrison: They are looking better and better all the time. It's nice for me to see Gurudasa. He's turning into a mountain. (laughter)
Prabhupada: His wife has also sannyasi, renounced. Have you seen her latest?
George Harrison: No.
Prabhupada: She has cut hair and white dress, living alone in the temple. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yogam. This bhakti-yoga means vairagya-vidya, means detachment. That is the perfection of life. If we remain attached, that is conditional. Maya has made so many things attractive so that we have to remain attached, and to come out of this attachment is called bhakti. So one man, you can sit down, you can eat. Pradyumna, you can eat.
Pradyumna: I've taken some milk before.
Prabhupada: Oh, you don't require. Now you can eat, go on. Prasada prapti matrena. Our Jayatirtha prabhu is a good manager. Management, looking after. Yes, he's a very good manager, experienced.
George Harrison: Hm?
Prabhupada: He's experienced manager.
Jayatirtha: Not very good managing this place now.
George Harrison: Well, it seems okay. Seems to be taken over pretty good. Peacefully.
Prabhupada: He was also managing Los Angeles. Now we have brought him here to see things nicely managed.
George Harrison: It feels good, nice vibrations.


YL

 

I must sign off but found just one more conversation.

Prabhupada: This instruction of Srimad-Bhagavatam was never given before in the Western countries. This is the first time.
George Harrison: Yes.
Prabhupada: Therefore they're appreciating. We are selling our books daily sixty thousand dollars. All over the world.
Mukunda: Srila Prabhupada, you're going to outdo Shakespeare soon. You'll have written more English words than William Shakespeare. (Prabhupada laughs) Maybe you already have.
Hari-sauri: I don't think Shakespeare's brought out fifty-six books.
Mukunda: The Encyclopedia Brittanica wrote to us asking for...
Prabhupada: They have said...
George Harrison: These books are such a lot of work. I don't know how he did it all.
Gurudasa: While everyone else sleeps, Prabhupada...
George Harrison: Yes.
Prabhupada: At night I don't sleep. Not that because I am nowadays sick. But generally I don't sleep. At most two hours. At most.
Hari-sauri: I think it's a long time since you've taken any rest at night.
Prabhupada: I take little rest during daytime. So on the whole, three to four hours. But actually I do not like to sleep.


YL

 

ummmm...lotus...what are you smokin??? those last two posts had nothing to do with Prabhupada's relationship with the Gaudiya Matha and his godbrothers but on the controversies of the birthplace of Mahaprabhu at Mayapura vs. Navadwipa as well as Bhaktivinoda Thakur's relationship with his diksa guru, Bipin Bihari Goswami

 

lotus, i think too in the simpleness that you propond to on the emnity between S. P. and his Godbrothers is simplistic...as well as the rest of the Gaudiy Vaisnavas and Hindu Religious community

here is what i feel a more comprehensive understanding from Jagadananda dasa
"I personally joined Iskcon in 1970 and lived in the Mayapur ashram for nearly five years, from 1975 to 1979. During this time I learned Bengali and was given much opportunity to meet many Gaudiya Math sadhus, nearly every branch of which is represented in the Nabadwip area. Of these, I especially name Iskcon’s neighbor, Damodar Maharaj, the disciples of Goswami Maharaj in Ishodyan, the disciples of Keshava Maharaj at the Devananda Gaudiya Math, and Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhar Maharaj, who showed great personal kindness toward me. Through these contacts, I was quite aware of Gaudiya Math culture and how it differed from that of Iskcon. Furthermore, I developed a great respect and personal liking for many of the acharyas I had the chance to meet and hear, including H.H. Bhakti Hridoy Bon Maharaj, H.H. Bhakti Dayita Madhava Maharaj, H.H. Bhakti Kevala Audulomi Maharaj, H.H. Bhaktivedanta Vaman Maharaj, H.H. Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj, and others. There were many others, whose Hari Katha I did not hear, but the dust of whose lotus feet I had the opportunity to take. Besides my debt to Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj, I acknowledge my debt to all these sadhus in the Gaudiya Math and through them to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

A very important experience marked me in 1977. I was given the task of fulfilling one of Srila Prabhupada's last requests, made in his last will and testament. He had asked that a representative go to all the Vaishnava temples and maths in the Nabadwip area, regardless of sampradaya, to request forgiveness on his behalf for any offenses he may have committed during his life of preaching. A donation of one or two hundred rupees was made to all of these maths for Vaishnava seva. Just as I found this act of humility on Srila Prabhupada's part to be glorious, I was equally impressed by the humble reaction of all those I met on this occasion.

In 1979, two years after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance, after reading the books of Bhaktivinoda Thakur like Bhajana-rahasya, Harinama-chintamani and Jaiva Dharma, I became interested in the practice of raganuga bhakti. Through a friend, Madhusudan Das, I also became aware of the initiation and disciplic succession issues. (See Articles #1 and #2). As a result, I decided to take shelter of Sri Sri Lalita Prasad Thakur, the son and initiated disciple of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, who granted me initiation and siddha pranali. Lalita Prasad Thakur was 99 years old at the time and I was thus only able to spend a few weeks directly in his association; nevertheless, I was able through him to get a new perspective on Gaudiya Vaishnava history. By his grace, the doors were opened for me to see the Vaishnava world in an exciting new way. For the next six years, I lived in Nabadwip, Vrindavan and Radha Kund, engaging in bhajan and learning about the history and philosophy of Gaudiya Vaishnavism from a non-Gaudiya Math perspective. At this time, I was able to meet a number of the leading renunciates in Radha Kund, of whom Ananta Das Pandit stands out.

Admittedly, in the first few years outside the Gaudiya Math, I took a somewhat militant attitude over the diksha and sampradaya issue, which did not endear me to those in the Gaudiya Math. Looking back on the few contacts I had with members of those institutions, I can recall several unfruitful conversations. I apologize to those with whom I may have overaggressively pleaded my cause.

In view of the importance given to the spiritual master in Hinduism generally and in Gaudiya Vaishnavism in particular, it is not surprising that I am often treated as a "guru tyagi." This is a difficult accusation to counter. I have never regretted the decision I made to go to Lalita Prasad Thakur and to learn the traditional esoteric practices of raganuga bhakti and the world views of the various Vaishnava subgroups that make up Gaudiya Vaishnavism. At the same time, I sincerely believe that I have remained true to the essential faith that came to me through Bhaktivedanta Swami--why, otherwise, would I be here? As such, I continue to pay my respectful obeisances to A. C Bhaktivedanta Swami and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

In 1985, I returned to Canada to study comparative religion at McGill University in Montreal and eventually take a PhD in Sanskrit from the University of London (SOAS). The time spent in studying various dimensions of religious life gave me new insights into my own experiences and the history of the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya. Though no one can ever be entirely free of prejudice, there is nothing more salutary for the mind and spirit than to learn to see other points of view sympathetically. Indeed, it was a very refreshing experience to look at the history of Krishna consciousness from an outsider’s point of view and to see what positive insights could be gained from such an exercise. Furthermore, the study of other religions has convinced me that the Krishna consciousness movement has as much, if not more, to learn as it has to teach.

One of the major errors made by those in the Gaudiya Math who criticize me is to think that I am a propagandist for either the traditional Vaishnava world or academic secularism. Although it is not unusual to see people who follow the route I have taken to undergo a radical conversion to atheism, agnosticism or a secular, pantheistic kind of faith, this is not what happened to me. Rather, I have become interested in serving my faith through the things that I have learned. At the same time I think that in our pluralistic world, this will only come about through a liberalization and modernization of the Krishna movement. I hold that all religions have a core faith as well as peripheral beliefs that need to be weighed separately, and that we must keep the core faith foremost and be prudent about peripherals. I call this, following Bhaktivinoda Thakur, the principle of the “sara-grahi.” As such, I am wary of what I see as fundamentalism and propaganda, whether it comes from Iskcon and the Gaudiya Math, or from the traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava movement, or any other religion. Questions of legitimacy cannot be settled by shouting the loudest, but only by honest self-examination.

In my conversations with Tripurari Maharaj, I was very impressed by his liberal attitude towards me personally. I had become rather accustomed to being treated by Iskcon and Gaudiya Math representatives as a pariah and had indeed been assiduously avoiding them for years. It became apparent to me that, despite our different life experiences, Tripurari Maharaj had developed what I perceived as an enlightened and liberal understanding of Krishna consciousness. He had come to the disturbing realization that there was a certain self-perpetuating, destructive and unproductive culture of Vaishnava aparadha in sections of the Gaudiya Math. He had experienced this several levels—first, when unfair accusations had been levied against him and Sridhar Maharaj when he left Iskcon to take shelter of him as his siksha guru, and later, when those in various Gaudiya Math denominations criticized his decision to publish and preach independently. Though Tripurari Maharaj is unswervingly committed to the decision he made to seek further teaching on spiritual life from his siksha guru, he had a non-judgmental, generous and sympathetic attitude to the decisions I had made to similarly seek a wider understanding of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, both in its scholarly as well as experiential dimensions. Furthermore, through our conversations, I was able, through him, to renew my appreciation for Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur as a reformer whose principle purpose was to preach against hypocrisy.