hare krishna

BlackBillBlake

I completely agree with all you say about the so called successors. Its a fact that they try to hide where Prabhupada never told them to be initiating guru's. And yes, I'm aware of the controversy. That is why I posted as I did, that they chagned so much of what Prabhupada taught. Thanks for posting the IRM link though. Many devotees knew about this before they existed because there has been such a deviation from Prabhuapda, which has a lot of kindhearted devotees angry and fried. Its also why many new to the Hare Krishna philosophy do not know what Prabhupada's true teachings are these days. Not only are these new guys initiating, they've even changed his books!

As for being the only way, I think anyone who reads Prabhupada's (original) books will see he never says in there this is the only lineage, but that there are other sampradayas as well as other pure devotee individuals on this planet. Most just dont know how to recognize them. Regarding Catholics and overall Christianity, Prabhupada explains that anyone who truthfully follows that will be liberated. He says this for any bona fide religion too, including Muslim.

YL

 

Here are a few things Prabhupada said on the topics we just mentioned:

Prabhupada: "Yes, this Krsna consciousness movement is not a sentimental religious system. It is science and philosophy. The attempt is to awaken God consciousness. God is neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. God is God. There may be angles of vision to approach God, but God is one." Srila Prabhupada speaks to La Trobe University, Melbourne , July 1, 74

"If one advocates the Hindu religion, the Muslim religion, the Christian religion, this religion or that religion, there will be conflicts. History shows that followers of religious systems without a clear conception of God have fought with one another." Srila Prabhupada, Srimad Bhagavatam 6. 16. 41

"One should know his identification. At the present moment, identification is going on by the skin. "I am Indian," "I am American." This is going on. But that is not our proper identification. The proper identification is aham brahmasmi: "I am spirit soul." This is to be understood in human form of life." Srila Prabhupada lecture, Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.6, May 24, 74, Rome Italy


If this doesn't clear things up, let me know. Thanks for your tolerance (cuz I realize, and accept, that many disagree with me) and patience. To each their own.

YL

 

Yoga Lady - thanks for your kind words, and I am glad to know you are aware of the extent to which some have distorted Prabhupada's mission. As I said in my pevious post, I think His books are a very great contribution, and whatever path one eventually follows, all can derive benefit from the repitition of Krishna's Name. It would be a shame though if one's exploration of Indian Philosophy and Religion, Yoga etc, were to stop with the works of only one man, representing only one aspect, one vision of the truth.

 

BalckBillBlake,

This has been fun. Much of what you say, it appears we agree. Surprise, surprise! It happens, even with us Hare Krishna's. LOL Though total would be too good now wouldn't it? Just joking.

I think there is one confusion many make, tho I understand it. Its this (and you are not the only one who says like this, just wanted to make it clear I'm not picking on you ha.)

It is a hard thing for many to accept, but here goes. ....

........... When a pure devotee walks the earth, let it be Jesus, Mohammad, or anyone else, they are not a "man." Tho it is so rare to have a genuine pure devotee amongst us, and many have cheated us claiming to be that, therefore we often find it hard to believe we've come across a real one. One actually sent to 'us,' or that it even happened in this modern day and age. Well, an example could be when Jesus was here cuz we see what happened to 'that' pure devotee. He was crucified for preaching. This is how some disbelieved him, (with others in grey areas). Yet enough believed to push on his Movement. It has been contaminated over time, but thats another subject. I agree there are many wonderful Vedic works of India presented by many 'men,' but we we're so blessed to have a pure soul come to us that was directly sent by God. This does not mean tho, that others who wrote wonderful Vedic (or any) literatures were not sent by God, only that we get this special opprotunity. Then we say, "Hey, I want more God. This one pure representative or Yours aint enough. I might have missed some angle or something." LOL Hey wait, am not saying you said this either. Just making a point its not always easy to recognize what has been sent our way, and so this is why Hare Krishna devotees don't wander out and about. Not cuz they are dogmatic or limiting their learning, but cuz they've all ready got a pure devotee directly sent and aint about to complain to God. ha Anyway, a pure devotee is never considered to be a body, so none of them would really be called men, or women for that matter. Must run. Wishing you well.

YL

 

Yoga Lady - I fully appreciate your point of view - with the proviso that it can't be the thing for everybody!

 

Well BlackBillBlake, we've probably come as far as we're going to. lol And in a sense, I can agree with you. But being me <s> I'd have to say they are missing out. Yeah, being you, you'd probalby disagree. Hey, lets agree to disagree.

YL

 

Mukunda: In one of his books, Prabhupada said that your sincere service was better than some people who had delved more deeply into Krishna consciousness but could not maintain that level of commitment. How did you feel about this?

George Harrison: Very wonderful, really. I mean it really gave me hope, because as they say, even one moment in the company of a divine person, Krishna's pure devotee, can help a tremendous amount.

And I think Prabhupada was really pleased at the idea that somebody from outside of the temple was helping to get the album made. Just the fact that he was pleased was encouraging to me. I knew he liked "The Hare Krishna Mantra" record, and he asked the devotees to play that song "Govinda." They still play it, don't they?

Mukunda: Every temple has a recording of it, and we play it each morning when the devotees assemble before the altar, before kirtana. It's an ISKCON institution, you might say.

George Harrison: And if I didn't get feedback from Prabhupada on my songs about Krishna or the philosophy, I'd get it from the devotees. That's all the encouragement I needed really. It just seemed that anything spiritual I did, either through songs, or helping with publishing the books, or whatever, really pleased him. The song I wrote, "Living in the Material World," as I wrote in I, Me, Mine, was influenced by Shrila Prabhupada. He's the one who explained to me how we're not these physical bodies. We just happen to be in them.

Like I said in the song, this place's not really what's happening. We don't belong here, but in the spiritual sky:

As l'm fated for the material world
Get frustrated in the material world
Senses never gratified
Only swelling like a tide
That could drown me in the material world
The whole point to being here, really, is to figure a way to get out.

That was the thing about Prabhupada, you see. He didn't just talk about loving Krishna and getting out of this place, but he was the perfect example. He talked about always chanting, and he was always chanting. I think that that in itself was perhaps the most encouraging thing for me. It was enough to make me try harder, to be just a little bit better. He was a perfect example of everything he preached. ~ From Interveiw "Chant and Be Happy."


Don't beat me up, LOL, I just couldn't avoid my inward temptations to post this.

YL

 

BLackBill Blake: Yes, you improve yourself by learning. But there's always a question of the driving force for your learning. Because you might also want to improve yourself, to be adored for your intelligence & knowledge by others. Your senses are the most powerful in you and if you have no control over your senses, they will swallow your inteligence too. How can you know? Me, personally I was and I am against dogma in any form and that led me to Hare Krishna philosophy. You need to be aware that dogma -it is not here as a type of path. It's always made by people, who want to gain either money or fame( what is basicly sense gratification). If your "dogma" is not to be controlled by material greed, it can't be a dogma, because it is a serious war against the things from which dogma originates.

Yoga Lady said it very clearly, nicely and well, she stole it from my head . The thing is you don't believe that Prabhupada could be a pure devotee and that's why you can't accept this philosophy as a gift from God -Krishna. It's not vice versa. That's the whole problem. You say to yourself -No that's not possible, he cannot be perfect. there must be something wrong with it. But that's attachment to material body. Little kid is happier, because he/she will accept everything without exploring it deeper. As Yoga Lady said this is a result of experience with cheaters, exploitation, well everything what took your naivite & innocence. But with that we lost something. We lost peace in mind. We are always worried, in paranoya. Why is that? We think that this material body -that's us, but that's not true. We shouldn't worry about our material body, but concentrate on spiritual side of our lives. You can see that, when your mind is in peace, everything around you seems peaceful too.
If you attain this liberation that you're not identified with your body anymore, you have no problems with accepting anything, or even believing in everything, because you're not anything from that -those are all processes of your body. You find yourself in a position of an actor and you as though play yourself -that's how you function, when you have control over your senses.

Thank you all for your great contribution you've provided to the Hare Krishna discussion.I wish you nice day wherever you are. Harribol!

 

How incredably interesting that this seams to be the topic of the day...materialism and peace of mind in innocence. I say this because I wrote a very long journal entry all yesterday trying to explain how I have become my 12 year old self again...If you would like to read it, just PM me...I just find it very ironic that you are mentioning it. But I must say that finding myself in these past few months...I have to credit you all...the Hare Krishnas and your beautiful philosophy....now I am Christian (Roman Catholic actually...but I never followed things as they said) and I have been absorbing these different ways of thinking, I have been reading...a lot. I actually started to look up the word Hare Krisna because I had heard it in the song "My Sweet Lord" by George Harrison...and I have discovered a great many things. I can actually say that I have found my way again...my connection with God...I have found my soul again....because I started to think about it again...because something clicked...because I went out on a limb, tried something new, and chanted the Hare Krishna mantra with no guilt that it was blashphemous because God is God no matter what you call him...my Lord is still Him and Jesus is still Him and the Holy Spirit is Him in my own soul...and I have to credit some of this to you all...for helping my pave my way....

...If you would still like to read my entry, you are more than welcome...the end is pretty much what I just told you...the rest of it...it just talks about how I got lost in the first place....

...a friend of mine said the other day that only "unintelligent people believe in religion" and I have to say that that is soo not true...because the Hare Krisnas on this board are some of the most amazing people who have every bared their souls to those who where willing to listen....

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

 

That's amazing you chant Hare Krishna! Go on!

 

SvgGrdnBeauty, what a lovely post you have written! I haven't much time now and will be back later, but wanted to tell you what a sweet person you are!

YL

 

I don't doubt that Prabhupada was an advanced devotee - even though he clearly made errors, such as not making clear what arrangements were to be put in place for initiation etc, after his departure. He was not infallible - no one is.
As for the driving force behind my 'learning' paltry as that may be, I certainly do not want to be adored. Neither do I wholly reject HK philosophy, I just think it is limited.
How can I know, you ask. But how can anyone know? Obviously through the inner faculty of knowing inherent in all human beings.
Also, I'm sorry, but I can't see how anyone can seriously claim that HK is not dogmatic.
And as for control of the senses, many other yogic and religious paths preach this, and have methods of attainment.
One of my chief criticisms of the many devotees I have met over the years is that they tend to belittle other paths, so sure are they that their's is superior. But when pressed, it often turns out that they know little of other paths, perhaps because they read Prabhupada's books to the exclusion of anything else. I have also heard it repeated often enough that HK is 'the only way in this age' - if that's not being dogmatic I'd like to know what is!
I find this game a bit of a bore - 'my paths better than yours '- 'X,Y or Z was the only true representative of God '.etc. There are many different types of Human being, and what suits one may be poison to another.
And also given that the bogus successor 'gurus' have all turned out to be no good,it is hard to see that orthodox HK as taught by Prabhupada is even a path that is accesible in the west, as Prabhupada clearly states that initiation must be taken from a 'bona-fide acharaya', and no such being is available.

 

Hey there BlackBillBlake.

Here we go. Ready?

Ok, now, Prabhupada DID make very clear what the arrangements were to be for initiaitons after his departure. The "authorities" did things like hid them, destroyed some, twisted the meaning of others, tried to use scripture as more important than his personal instructions, and more. Its even out of character for him not to be clear on any type of arrangements he made for anything, so this confusion is not his doing, but theirs.

As for him making errors, who are we to judge? Do we really think we can identify an error or a pure devotee? Would people be so quick to say that if it were Jesus? "Oh Jesus, you made an error?" ha I doubt it. But yet many have trouble accepting Prabhupada was a pure devotee on that level too. Most cannot list qualifications of a pure devotee, yet with our imperfect senses, we judge. Take for example our eyes. Yes, they are wonderful, but limited. We require the aid of a microscope to see even the small material microbe, so how do we think with our eyes we will see God or recognize His representative? But Prabhupada could see God and did this regularly, so we dont know what is a mistaken and what is not. Thats why we study. God gave us brains to study. ha Thank goodness for that!

I don't want to get into all the personal things going on between you and Sleeping Jiva, so I will snip here.

Well, I wont get too into that one, but will touch on it briefly by saying if you are truly reading Prabhuapda's books, and deeply, and all of them, you would not be feeling this way.

Good point. Only the pure deovtee can know. Therefore first one must learn how to recognize a pure devotee. But many dont want to do that cuz it means once they find him, they should surrender to him. Lets face it, who's so good at surrendering? I know I'm not. I try, but I'm not.

In addition to my personal understanding and explanation of that - already made previously - I would add that there is this "religion" out there where many New Agers or others hold a strong "belief" that everyone must be noncommital to anything, otherwise that person is leaving something out, closed, and therefore part of a dogma. But isn't that also a dogman? If we do not belive as they believe, if we dont accept a little from every path but instead commit to our spiriutal path, according to their judgment, we are following a dogma. ha Kind of a double edged sword there.

You may be surprised to read I am not so much in disagreement with you, or in part anyway. Many devotees, tho especially the newbies, get real fanatical. It even ticks me off! LOL I can get very into this cuz it irks me like crazy, but the bottom line is, too many others therefore, judge our teachings by the devotees. Please judge our religion by reading Prabhupada's books for yourself and on that alone.

I don't doubt many show a lack of humility. But putting that aside, once one has attained the Absolute Truth, they have attained the Absolute Truth (in knowlege not necessarily in experience -- yet!). God is God, so once a preson has found that connection, be they HK's or Christians or Jewish, etc., they have achieved the highest. This I think is your concern tho, that these devotees you have personally met do not give credit to other paths. But here is where it boils down to a matter of "degree." Another topic which we can talk about, but right now am getting tired so the short answer is, there is only one God, He is unlimited, may go by many names be it Buddha, Allah (actualy just means "God"), Rama, Jesus, Vishnu, Krishna, Yahway (spelling), etc. Our REAL teachings from Prabhupada's books you will see, do not argue with any of these and similar bona fide religions. Of course we say Krishna is highest but that is where the new deovtees don't know how to show respect for all other paths. Yet, everyone thinks their path is "superior." Do you not think yours isn't? Ha Of course you think it is. So to prove Krishna consciousness is superior is not my goal. I will explain to those interested, but I wont harass those uninterested and will respect their religion. Be nice to get that mutually for a change tho. (Wait - that was not a reflection on you.)

This tells me they are new devotees who know not what they talk of, tho have good intent. ha Still, they shoud study before they speak.

So the bottom line for you is to always return to how unforunate we are to read only the works of a pure devotee since you dont accept him as a pure devotee, therefore we are missing out? Actually, if you would read his books thoroughly, you will see most of what is in every other religion, is included in ours. This is explained in the Introduction of Prabhupadas Bhagavad-gita As It is. The very introduction. I suggest that be read before assuming we are so ignorant of anything else.

The quote is that in this age of kali, the only way back to God, and of course for us, to Krishna, is to chant His Holy names, chant His holy names, (I'm not saying this in a fantical ways, the Sanskrit says it three times), Chant His holy names. In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy there is no other way. -- Now, we dont care if someone chants "Jesus" "Buddha" or "Narayana" but to please chant or pray. Also, this is Sanskrit, we are not making up any dogmatic thing. It's from ancient Sanskrit text. How is ancient Sanskirt dogmatic? So you see, in the Vedas there are four ages, and each age is given a "prescribed" way for salvation. In previous yugas (ages) one was insturcted by these ancient scriptures to meditate (all the time, not 30 minutes) to achieve God consciousness. In another previous age one was instructed via ancient Sanskrit to preform yajna (sacrifice type cermonies). Anyway in this modern day and age, the prescribe method is to merely chant. It is the easiest so why are we complaining?! LOL

Ok, but isn't that what you're doing? <G>

Yes, I agree this has happened. But please not to think we can't access Prabhuada anymore, that he is "dead." Prabupada said he lives forever in his books. If anyone wants to make contact with him, they merely need to read his books, and be sincere too. To follow the instructions he gave and thats all. But I must wonder at some point, is not this focus of what these new gurus etc have done to the movement not a way to minimize the movement and make it no longer worth doing? Why bother dedicating ourselves to it cuz it must be hopeless due to all thats going on? Some food for thought.

There appears to be many misunderstandings devotees may have told you (am 'not' referring to IRM) of our teachings. This is why I stress to read Prabhuapda's books for yourslef, and that they are very complex, not so simplistic as some of the misunderstandings I guess devotees have told you are our teachings, which have been presented here. Even devotees who live in temples have to read his books for years and years before they get the some 'real' understanding of how detailed this knowledge is, because its a lack of this study that causes them to say some fanatical things. I have heard a Sanskrit scholar commented that Prabhuapda's Bhagavad-Gita is more advanced understandings then his own knowledge of Sanskrit, and this gentleman was very expert! So IMHO, us Westerners need to read more thoroughly before criticizing.

I realize you wrote much of this to sleeping jiva and you two are ummm at battle? ha So your words and mine too, may have not been the best selected ones. I do apologize for that, and hope that you and sleeping jiva will continue your conversation but in a gentle manner.

YL

 

I'm not trying to rub anything in or be a know-it-all, God knows I am far from knowing much of anything. lol Just thought that maybe showing what our REAL teachings are may be helpful. Here's a bit of a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Father Emmanuel.


Srila Prabhupada: What is the meaning of the word, “Christ?”

Father Emmanuel: Christ comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning "the anointed one."

Srila Prabhupada: Christos is the Greek version of the word Krishna.

Father Emmanuel: This is very interesting.

Srila Prabhupada: When an Indian person calls on Krishna, he often says, "Krsta". Krsta is a Sanskrit word meaning "attraction". So when we address God as "Christ", "Krsta", or "Krishna" we indicate the same all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Jesus said, " Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be Thy name," the name of God was Krsta or Krishna. Do you agree?

Father Emmanuel: I think Jesus, as the son of God, has revealed to us the actual name of God: Christ. We can call God "Father", but if we want to address Him by His actual name, we have to say "Christ".

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. "Christ" is another way of saying Krsta and Krsta is another way of pronouncing Krishna, the name of God. Jesus said that one should glorify the name of God, but yesterday I heard one theologian say that God has no name -- that we can call Him only "Father". A son may call his father "Father", but the father also has a specific name. Similarly, God is the general name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose specific name is Krishna. Therefore whether you call God "Christ", "Krsta", or "Krishna", ultimately you are addressing the same Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Father Emmanuel: Yes, if we speak of God's actual name, then we must say, "Christos". In our religion we have the Trinity: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe we can know the name of God only by revelation from the son of God. Jesus Christ revealed the name of the Father, and therefore we take the name "Christ" as the revealed name of God.

Srila Prabhupada: Actually, it doesn't matter -- Krishna or Christ -- the name is the same. The main point is to follow the injunctions of the Vedic scriptures that recommend chanting the name of God in this age. The easiest way is to chant the maha-mantra: Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare. Rama and Krishna are names of God and Hare is the energy of God. So when we chant the maha-mantra we address God along with His energy. This energy is of two kinds, the spiritual and the material. At present we are in the clutches of the material energy. Therefore we pray to Krishna that He may kindly deliver us from the service of the material energy and accept us into the service of the spiritual energy. This is our whole philosophy. Hare Krishna means, "O energy of God, O God (Krishna), please engage me in Your service." It is our nature to render service. Somehow or other we have come to the service of material things, but when this service is transformed into the service of the spiritual energy, then our life is perfect. To practice bhakti-yoga [loving service to God] means to become free from designations like Hindu, Muslim, Christian, this or that, and simply to serve God. We have created Christian, Hindu and Mohammedan religions, but when we come to a religion without designations, in which we don't think we are Hindus or Christians or Mohammedans, then we can speak of pure religion, or bhakti.


YL

 

Yoga Lady, thank you for your kind words. I really do mean all that I have said...2nd, oh my gosh...that is it ^ ! The post you have posted IS the point. Half of the reason that we have the problems that we do in the world today is because most people fail to realize that there is no difference in religion....I know that my church (I refer to it in this manner as the church of my family) does fail to realize this partly...not the teachings...but the diplomatic body and the peoples of the church. It was said in our scripture and I know that I meantioned it before that we were instructed to love God and to love each other...it never meantioned anything about the separation...Jesus said to love only your neighbors who are of your church or religion...it said to love all your neighbors...yet somehow, through out the years it has been twisted horribly wrong. We have wars over this and we shun others because of this...and why? Because they call the Lord by a different name? If there is one thing that I wish I could change in this world...it would be to get out that philosophy...that which you just posted...

I'm sure that I'm not even together with what you guys are talking about...but I just felt like commenting on the words of the different philosophers...I like 'em...

 

SvgGrdnBeauty --

What you say makes so much sense! The current world situation has not changed from old world problems of ages gone by. We think we are so much more civilized and advanced, but people are still creating wars over religions, etc. To get above all that and just realize we are all spirit souls, all part and parcel of God, now that would be wonderful.

This link is for you. http://www.webcom.com/ara/col/books/YM/cbh/#Top

YL

 

Thanks Yoga Lady for helping me out. It's the very same thoughts I got on my mind. Maybe a reference about Hare Krishna's being dogmatic is related to the surrendering to God. I do believe that when you have a relation directly with Him, with God -it goes automatically, you don't need to believe in something, because you actually experiencing it. But since you have not a relation with God, you need to believe that you're gonna develop one. We all need to believe -you believe that your mum&dad are your parents, eventhough you don't remember your birth (well, that would prove only your mum The scriptures and spiritual master is here for you to awaken it in you, but you still have to do the work yourself. That's why there can't be any dogma. In dogma everything is told to you -it is an opposite of freedom. Our materialistic customs lead us into thinking that we need something in order to get wiser, more tolerant, to be a better person. We are trying to find a path, but the thing is you''re already there. You can be self-satisfied -you can achieve such a state of mind. I remember reading in Prabhupada's books that everyone will attain liberation once. It's like a lie -it never lasts. The true things are still here, but the lie will be given out one day. It's not possible for lie to be taken as truth for eternity. Our understanding will come, either you go that way or the other, because the origin of all things is GOd. That's why Hare Krishna are respecting other religions, we are aware that everybody is partly Supersoul (Krishna's part).

When we say "this is the only way" it means your way is the only&specific one for you. We believe that everybody is an individuality, everyone has a different karma. It's just not that easy to find the natural ÿou, to find the point when you don't lie to yourself and pretending what you are not. The point where you partly are connected to all living beings in the universe and yet feel your unique essence. This philosophy, I dare to say is a helper to find that original position. We should firstly be aware that we are not only these material bodies. All kinds of enjoyments make us think that we are. In that sense, yes it is a dogma to these energies, which become a part of us. And they also argue and reason instead of us. They are afriad of this "dogma". We Hare Krishna's want to stop that part of "our" opinion.

If you had been born as blind on a desert island and there would be no person to tell you, you'd think that to see isn't possible -you'd think this is natural-not to see. then one day you'd bump into a person, who would see perfectly. He would tell you :No this is natural -to see. But you'd say: No, that is not true, you are wrong, we cannot see. The guy would say: I can experience it! Therefore it exists. But you'd say: "Don't make my opinion less worthy! In fact you have a dogma as a belief!" Yes, it would be a dogma from his point of view, but the guy, who sees would laugh. That's why you can never really believe your senses.

It's also to see yourself as a suffering being. It's not a solution to pretend that you're happy. Better admit your suffering and thusly get rid of it. Well, I know nothing about anything, but it seems to me logical that the only way how to control your senses is to do a switch and instead of satisfing yourself, trying to satisfy God. Because if you try to control your senses just to make yourself a more elevated person, there's another obstacle for you to overcome: pride. This is natural way how to control your senses, you shouldn't get more spiritual for you, but for God. There's no need for controled senses if you're gonna stay in this world of misery.

 

Sorry folks but I don't buy this at all. The points made are too numerous to go through them all, but clearly we will have to agree to differ over the definition of the word 'dogma'.

It's not that I think one should believe in nothing, as you seem to suggest, I have made clear my position as one not opposed to Krishna. I repeat again that HK is only one version, even of vaishnavism, A fact that many devotees seem unaware of.

If one accepts Prabhupada as a divine being, one sent from God, still there are many others who make such a claim, or have it made on their behalf by others. Therefore if there is some disparity between the teachings of such beings, it is hard to say who is correct.

Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo, Maharaji, Paramansa Yogananda, Ramana Maharishi are some examples of other Hindu teachers. And in other traditions there are many more.

Where the fake Gurus are concerned, Prabhupada must have been wrong to choose such a paltry bunch as sucessors, and he should have made it clear from day one what the arrangements would be after his death. As a divine being . he should have had this degree of judgemant of character, and realized the mess that would ensue when he was not around to personally supervise things.

I can't see much point in my posting this, as it's hardly the case that Devotees are open to argument or even discussion anyway - seems all they want is others to agree fully with every word uttered by their master and have lost nearly all capacity of independent action or thought.

Similar to the Catholic dogmatists of the past, and look where that led!

 

Thank you very much for the site. I will be sure to read it tomorrow...I have to get some sleep tonight. It is ironic that it has interview with George Harrison because I was reading his book I Me Mine and he was talk about one of the songs that was inspired by a trip to a village in India ( I don't remember the details...) and then he went on about it was where Sri Krishna lived and danced with the gopis and it brought about talking about how Krishna had lived to take on the burden of bad karma while Christ had lived to take on the sins of his people and both were the Lord and both saved their people...hmm...I figure I should share that when I read it...I guess I could add that to me theory, eh? Coincidence...I think not...

 

Well, yes, as you are determined your dogma is the only dogma that isn't a dogma. lol My bad.

I never suggested that.

yawn....... I must admit, I get tired of hearing this complaint from those who don't really know what we believe but think they do. Matter of fact, that accusation is actually contradictory to our philosophy. Be nice if someday, someone took the humble position for a change and ASKED us what we believe. Or, God forbid, admit they may have misunderstood the proper, transcendental writings of a pure devotee so please could we explain, "What does Prabhuapda mean when he says "yada yada?" I'm tellin ya, if I hadn't moved into an ashrama, there'd still be so much I wouldn't understand of this knowledge which it took sages so much to aquire. And surely I have far to go, but at least I asked instead of speculated, then sticking to such speculations as 'right' when they weren't.

Actually, that we DON'T believe this way is a fact that seems some Vedic followers outside our movement are unaware of. These are NOT our teachings, and there ARE other Vaisnavas on earth. Prabhupada says this in many places - his books, his Morning Walk conversations/tapes, class lecturs/tapes, etc.

Again, our teachings agree with this.

Therefore, how will you know who is real and who is not? The Vedas give specific qualifications how to recognize. A person must first know these before we can have any idea of who is or who isn't. First, learn the specified Vedic qualifications of a pure devotee teacher before you are quick to judge. Lets see that list. Otherwise, its just talk.

Exactly. Therefore, only one who has studied the Vedas can know how to recognize one, what to look for, etc. First you must study.

1. We don't follow Hindu anything.
2. We accept there are other pure devotee guru's on the planet but we do not accept impersonalists or mayavadis as bona fide.

Again, we never said there aren't. Prabhuapda himself has said both Jesus and Mohammad were pure devotees, among others. It appears you dont know as much about us as you may think you do, and are therefore accusing us of things we do not even believe in.

You really get off on calling him "wrong" and I guess that makes you feel powerful and spiriutally better, but it is an offense to call any pure devotee from any spiriutal path "wrong." You tell us not to do this to others, which by the way we DON'T, but you keep doing it to us.

He never chose them as successors. You are getting that IRM newsletter, but it appears you are not understanding what you are reading. You're just using it to fire up your persoanl vantage point.

You're repeating yourself from your last post. I all ready covered this. He DID! That others destroyed those instructions and documents are not his fault. Freewill is always there.

Ahhhhhh its so much easier to blame Prabhupda now, isn't it. ..... Again, he did personally, very personally, take care of his responsibilities over these things. He covered it all, and others destroyed as much as they could. That does not mean we did not uncover things, and slowly they will be put back to rights. But you seem to enjoy really that this happened as a way to empower your personal point of view as the only point of view. Yet, you do not live in the temples, near the temples, do not hang regularly with serious devotees who live outside temples, and since I am one, I know more of what has gone on, and is going on, on the inside of the Hare Krishna Movement, then you do.

Here we're in agreement, as you appear to me as one of those people whose ego or low self esteem can't handle being wrong as just a mistake, and appologize or bow out nicely. Gotta keep it going until you win and we convert to your religion, whatever that may be is irrelevant, just your 'noncommital' way or the highway.

Actually, I am beginning to wonder if, when you see those deovtees on the street or wherever you see them, and talk to them, the ones you say give you a hard time, I wonder if really you give them a hard time and talk to them for the 'purpose' of argumentation. It appears you love to fault find.

Devotees are always open to discussion, I know from experience, including the experiences I had 'before' I was one. However if you can't defeat them and are a poor looser, what can be done? If your goal is to convert them, that's just foolishness on your part, not theirs. I dont go to the Catholic church and tell the priest or nuns the faults "I" find with their religion and they should convert to mine.

Now, if you want to speak of 'master' --- who lets someone blaspheme their master? Any religion? Show me. But if you want to disagree, why go after the devotees? Why not just go your way and let them go theirs? Devotees aren't exactly knocking at your door. So you must do this for a reason.

You mean we refuse to think as you do. Won't 'convert' to your way of thinking.

I am sorry you have had trouble with the Catholics, but we are not them, and they are not us. Our lineage, and way of doing things, is traceable back to time immemorial, to Krishna Himself. Its not some new thing. We are part of the Gaudiya Brahma Sampradiya which is found written in Sanskrit, listed in Vedic literatures. Its one of the 4 ancient Sampradiya's, ours starting with Brahma himself. (Or more specifically, Lord Krishna giving this knowledge to the demi-god Brahma.) Its gone on all that time, seems to be doing better than the Catholic lineage.

I want to wish you well still, tho you're probably too mad now to believe it. And too deaf. All I said probably went in one ear and out the other, and right into defensive mode of 'how to defeat it.' But when people do this in one area of life, they tend to do it in all. So, hows your love life going? LOL Uh oh, now I'm in for it. (Fact is, if ya don't own that inner anger, you're gonna find it has less to do with religion then you want to think.)

YL