hare krishna

I never said that. I said that what is more important to me is the words in the text, not the fact that it was Krishna who said it. Each person who reads a certain text is going to get something different out of it and that's fine. And I think that our understanding of things increases over time. I am in the habit of rereading certain texts because each time I read them I get something different out of them.

And there are different paths for everyone. I feel comfortable on the path of knowledge. It fits with me. Maybe it is troublesome for some, but it does not seem that way to me. It is the right path for me. I don't have to struggle to be on it, it comes naturally. And I understand that the path of love is not any worse or better than any other path. For me Bhakti yoga is fraught with difficulties. If it works for others then that's wonderful.

I feel that, no matter what path you are on, it is important to realize that God is with and without form. We are part of God, as is this universe with all of its material forms and names. Everything is part of God. All things spring from God, so there can exist no object or idea that is not divine in its nature. Any name or form that a worshipper can conceive of is all part of God. But God is not just that. God is Its material form and Its Immense, unknowable, formlessness. And I think that without knowing of both then you are only seeing one side of the coin. But this is the viewpoint of a jnana yogi. Any thoughts?

 

'Hare Krishna' is a devotional religion fit for slavish natures, a religious regurgitation in an age of decay. It is a monotheist attempt to interpret the Aryan warrior message of the Bhagavad and sell it to the Judeo-Christian masses.

Mind you, I'm not criticizing people in the movement: if chanting mantras in a foreign language is what makes you feel spiritual, good for you. I just don't see how Hare Krishna (100% Semitic in spirit) is significantly different from the devotional, ethical religion of Christianity (also fit for slavish natures, as a guy named Nietzsche observed some time ago...). Different book, same message of submission to universalist monotheism.

 

I went downtown once to watch the fire works, and these Krishna's about my age were all dancing together, singing their chant... I started dancing with them! It was a lot of fun... Ah, what a good group of people.... Always happy!

 

Night Owl: I definetely agree with you in every aspect. I don't see just one side of a coin. Maybe I do sometimes -but that's ignorance. The path of knowledge for me is the same as the path of love, because only by love (I mean pure love not because you want something) you can be given knowledge, and only by developing your knowledge you can attain a state, when you love with no interuption. Yeah, God is everywhere, some people just think that He's not and that makes it harder for them. Because then they're in chaos. Spring Snow: Nietzche was a devotee of Krishna. He said it in one of his books: "If I believed in God, he would have to dance." Well, I was reading papers the other time and Pope banned dancing during masses the other time. Hare Krishnas dance a lot ,also they simply cannot eat meat. In fact I'd say that Hare Krishnas are even more Christians than Chrisitans. Jesus said: "Thou shalt not kill!"as one of his first commands. Well, animal slughterhouses are stillgoing on in the Christian west.
Where there is a slave, there must be a master. Hare Krishnas master is Krishna, materialistic people's master is greed. Either you serve Krishna, or you serve greed. You're certainly not a master. If you'd been a master , your senses wouldn't have control over you. Nietzche is one of my favourite philosophers and deeply admire him. His points are not very different from Bhagavadgita. Truly - a great soul!

 

it was actually a mosaic code and not from jesus...jesus spoke in parables and not commands as well...he was a rather cryptic dude and so the interpretations of his teachings are wide and varied as well as what became his teachings has been edited

 

He actually had two commandments...they are taught as the "Laws of Love"...one is Love God with your whole heart, whole soul, and whole body and the other was to Love your neighbor as you love your God...other than that...he did speak in parables...

 

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This is the first and greatest commandment.And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22: 37-40

 

That was it! hehe...I was close...it was mind not body...ah well...

 

I'd like to come in here and say that the Hare Krishna movement as brought to the west by A.c. Bhaktivedanta has had major problems, and continues to have major problems with its' so-called gurus, many of whom have 'fallen' from grace and from their positions in the movement, and some of whom have been implicated in serious criminal activity, including drug dealing, child-abuse. prostitution.


This is a fact, and it is also a fact that the Krishna Consciousness movement represents only one fact of the whole body of Hindu philosophy with regard to Krishna. They are what would be characterized in the west as fundamentalists, but the truth is they can't even agree among themselves!

Two Links:

http://www.iskconirm.com/


http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc/black/bogus4.htm

The second of these details some of the mis-deeds of the bogus HK 'gurus'.

 

I was never a member of ISCKON, I just read Bhaktivedanta's books, yet I consider them a good thing to be -they spread Krishna consciousness and that's how one of the prints of Bhagavadgita came to me . I was blessed, now I see it all. I don't feel very learned about Krishna, but I'm trying to put this question in front of you: Are you able to say any opinion about Krishna, when you don't know what is it about? Can you judge without knowing it deeper?
What is knowing it deeper?
When I started reading Bhagavadgita I was simply trying to find a substitute for drugs I was using (psychedelics), because I knew that one day I wouldn't be able to get the same buzz. I was open. I didn't believe in God, but I believed that I'm not the one who knows everything. When I started reading the first thing, which strucked me was Srila Bhaktivedanta as though saying: Love Krishna, otherwise you won't be able to understand. To understand logically is good, but your senses will overcome even your inteligence. So I said to myself - I'm gonna love Krishna, if it's true I'll understand better, if it's not I'll go by a different path. It's nothing you have to write with your blood on a lease It's just that easy. You say to yourself: I love you, the one, who is everything. I love everything. you just start to take your fight against egotism seriously. I'm still in this and so far I wrote to many forums -the reactions were very similar: "Hare Krishna is not good period." but nobody had arguments for saying that. They say: "It forces you to love and they're not logical. " but their reaction doesn't seem logical to me -how can you say without experiencing? Especially when the experience is so easy to achieve? Just chant the mahamantra and explore it by yourself. Don't let others control your mind! For me people saying: The image of Hare Krishna I have in my head is not good. If you'd studied (or at least tried to chant mahamantra (see below)) Bhagavadgita or Srimad Bhagavatam and then said : this is not bad, because that and that. I would take your opinion as valid. But we devotees know that as soon as you taste the nectar of loving service to Lord Sri Krsihna your heart will melt.

Those crimes have nothing to do with Krishna consciousness. If you studied Bhagavadgita you'd know that in Krishna consciousness, the first step is to control your senses. Fundamentalists -what does it mean? That Krishna devotees make bombs? hehehe just kiddin', but we don't force our belief on anybody -that is a fact. It is one of the devotees principles: Don't confuse materialists! It is an offense to preach about glory of the Holy Names to non-devotees.
Have you ever meet devotees, talk to them, ever been in a temple? have you read Bhagavadgita with purports of Srila Bhaktivedanta? . If not, you're not eligible to say this is Krishna consciousness.Srila Prabhupada dedicated a great amount in his books to explain that demons are exploiting Bhagavadgita and the message of Lord Sri Krishna. If somebody acts agianst the scriptures he's not a guru, but a cheater. We should always question our master, not just blindly obey. We should be very polite though, because you can make an offense.

Be blessed!
Haribol!

 

Sleeping Jiva - I have read many of Srila Prabhupada's books over a period of many years, I have often met Devotees and I have had very positive experiences in connection with Sri Krishna. I am not criticizing Prabhupada as a phoney, only those who have sought to occupy the position of Guru on false pretences.

A close freind of mine is a former Devotee of one of the eleven sucessors who claimed they were appointed by prabhupada to be Initiating Gurus after his passing from this world, Jayatirtha. He subsequently split with the mainstream movement and told his followers to take LSD to see Krishna. Jayatirtha was later murdered in a gruesome manner by another follower who it is claimed, had become mentally ill. The followers who were left have mainly left the HK movement, and some have had many problems as a result of their experiences.

I myself met one of the now 'fallen' gurus - Gurudeva, at Croombe court in England in the early 1980's. At the time, he struck me as one devoid of any spirirual prescence whatsoever, a total phoney. Later, he absconded with a female follower and a large amount of money. I believe he eventually faced charges of embezellment.

It is clear that the actions of these people would have come in for severe censure were Prabhupada still around. In their cases, and perhaps in many others, it is clear that bad things have been done, with no motive other than gross personal gain, sensual pleasure, and agrandizement of persons with no spiritual realization or Knowlege.

It is not enough to simply repeat platitudes, all of this philosophy is useless unless put intp actual practice. Facts are facts, and no amount of causistry can change them.

It seems to me that the Iskcon Reform people represent the only hope for the movement in the west.

But I repeat also my previous point, that Gadiya Vaishnavism represents only one small sect within the vast Hindu tradition, and perhaps a narrow and dogmatic one at that.

 

I disagree completely with the last comment about dogma, but also know why Hare Krishna devotees are sometimes viewed that way. The rest, I basically agree with.

What were devotees thinking when the new gurus were "appointed?" Prabhupada spent years upon years saying never to vote anyone in as guru, thats not how to select anyone as qualified as guru, yet we fell for it? Then again, they lied to us, cheated, said it was Prabhuapda's instructions. It was not. His instruction was that these guys be ritivk, thats all. That means that everyone still is his disciple, because he could not see anyone else qualified so he still has to take our karma on his head. Yet is lovingly willing accepted. These "authorities" to this day do not follow that instruction and even fight it tooth and nail, quick to make you suffer or kick you out of the temple if you dare to say you are a "ritvik" devotee. They dont want to give up power or position.

Dont please to confuse them or their actions, with Prabhupada or what he started. What he originally began is pure, was pure, remains pure (not in the puritanical sense of the word, but in trasncendental sense of the word, unchanged by human hands). What is going on now is not the same movement Prabhupada started. Thats also why you see so many weird things said about what people 'think' we believe, even on this thread, cuz of the strange new preaching and new management since he left or appears to have left. They don't repeat what he taught, but preach controling, manipulating things which makes people think we are mindless zombies, or some other strange beliefs, but its not their fault. Its whats being taught these days. Its not the truth of what we believe though. Too bad such misgivings are being accepted even by open minded hippies, and they dont check it out more deeply and see what really went down. That is done to the govt so hope some hppies will understand we wound up with a govt too, and they did all this to us.

YL

 

I know nothing about those "fallen" gurus. I heard something here and there, but I have no clue about it. The deeds they committed have nothing to do with Prabhupada's books in my opinion. Yes, the victims are a miserable thing and I'm deeply sorry for the suffering they must have come through, but the worst thing is that demons spread this horrible propaganda and they distorted Prabhupada's message. I think that is even worse than to be indifferent to the teachings of Krishna. But I think Prabhupada himself said: Just read my books, you'll find everything there. We should always ask for unclear things. The master is Lord Krishna, we should obey Him and serve Him! That's why it can't be dogma. In dogma you have to obey materialistic people, who don't like questioning. The pure devotee (in my opinion) should be able to explain everything also on intelectual basis.

 

Yes, yes, just read his books. How sublime and enlightening his books are! Though we also have to clean up the mess made by these others cuz just look and see, even here the hippies think Hare Krishna's are just people who 'need' someone to follow, or need a mantra to chant and become zombies, or our 'religion' is a dogma. None of which Prabhuada taught! Twisted, not by them, but those who spoke to them maybe. Who knows. What a mess we did not make but somehow have to do the cleaing up for Lord Caitanya.

YL

 

We should not judge a book by its cover. When somebody tells you: "That is that!" You should always question him. Don't be stupid, realise, it is always your individual path, don't make others to make decisions for you. Guru is a great person, but he's supossed to awaken God consciousness within you. It is never "öut" there, it's always "inside" of you. You need to experience it on your own. I think that was a part of Prabhupada's message. Just chant and make a relation with God yourself, you don't need anything to get you there. The books he wrote were full of this, therefore they can't be treated as something you "need". It's not that materialistic realm. They're totally pure. If your eyes are dirty, you simply cannot see them as they are, cuz you see dirt everywhere.

 

Black Bill Blake: I'm sorry for my words on your account. That's great you read Prabhupada's books. You're certinaly enlightened! I was just saying that to everybody -it wasn't really to you, if you read them. Please forgive my anger, it was not addressed to you, but to those who judge without knowing the object of their judgement.

 

Yes. What many dont know, even in ISKCON itself, is that when the deovtees would chant "Jai Prabhupada" over and over, though this is bona fide, but he would not be so much fond of that and even would tell them to chant Hare Krishna - Gods name.

YL

 

I think that Prabhupada's books are a valuable contribution to our understanding of Krishna, and it seems he personally stuck to the rules. My complaint on this level is that none of the so called successors have done so, and there is some dispute as to whether Prabhupada actually intended them to become initiating gurus. According to the ISCKON reform movement people, they were supposed only to be Ritviks, a kind of lesser position where they would initiate in the name of Prabhupada.
If you are not aware of the controversy, please check out the links in my original post on this subject. A very good free magazine is available from ISKCONIRM.
Also though, there is little doubt in my mind that the Krishna'a are dogmatic, and inclined too much to believe what they've been told rather than what they really know to be the truth - and as I say, Gaudiya Vaishnavism is only one among many Hindu sects. Why should one believe them and not any of the others? Because they claim it's the highest? But so, for example , do Roman Catholics. It is certainly unwise to settle on this without checking out other versions according to other paths.

 

I comletely agree with your points, BlackBillBlake.

I believe devotional religions (including Vaishnavism) may be good for some people or some ethnic groups, but definitely not for all. The Hare Krishna movement's attempt to universalize certain Hindu practices has much to do with the influence of Christianity and its proselytizing (missionary, monotheistic, intolerant) spirit on Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thank you SpringSnow for your post, tho I feel compelled to point out some misunderstandings. Hare Krishan's do not claim to be Hindu's at all, and the practice is nondogmatic. But if you consider committment as dogmatic, then I guess we fit there. lol I also dont understand whats so wrong with wanting to universalize God or a spiriutal path that is sublime. This universalizing doesn't mean we are saying you (or anyone) has to agree, even its ok to disagree, but those are our teachings. No one has to like them, but they should know them if going to criticize them. I mean, saying we are good for "some" people sort of sounds like those people are the loosers or spiriutal weaklings. lol Maybe thats not what was intended.

And prosylitizing - all pure devotees of all religions have done that, or instructed followers to do it. Seems to be what God wants, tho I will agree there are many who don't know how and can therefore be very annoying, and dsirespectful of others beliefs.

I haven't read BlackBillBlakes post, so can't say anything yet.

YL