hare krishna

I indeed understand what you are saying and your words are, as usual, beautiful. I never said that I do not love Jesus...no...I just chose to love Him the way that I see fit...sometimes the teachings of the Catholic church, not as a religious body...but as a governmental body, are hypocritical and that is the part of my religion that I do not like...also the fact that since there are many that are fully committed to the ways of the Catholic church: to the politics of it that I do not believe in...I am heaped with the stereotype...that is the part of organized religion that I do not like...the politics and the stereotype...I'm just trying to find my own path to enlightment...its personal and it should never have to do with politics...that, my friend, is what is unfortunate about my religion...

...I found a quote from John Lennon the other day...and it kinda reciprocates what I've been saying...and I like it:

"I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong."- John Lennon

 

WOWOW!!! Lots of misconceptions here.

First, Vaishnavism is not 5,000 years old nor the first religion in the world. Wow, where did you get that idea. The Dravidian or pre-Hindu religions did include Shiva and Shakti worship but Vishnu was not a name then, nor is Vishnu mentioned in the Vedas anywhere.

Vishnu is mentioned only in Itihasa which includes the Mahabharata and various puranas.

Vaishnavism and Hare Krishnas in general are not Advaita Vedanta, or in other words, do not believe in merging into Krishna but rather believe in remaining forever dual and in thrall of Krishna, the personal form of Vishnu.

It has been theorized that Krishna worship developed from Kali/Shaktism worship, and in some parts of India Kali and Krishna are seen to be one. In fact the of each Shyam and Shyama show the very close similarity of them at least in name. Both names mean essentially "of the night." Which refers to their dark color.

Hari Krishna means "love of the dark one." The dark one is the one obscured by thought and which is the self as in, "And now you see as through a glass darkly, but one day you will see face to face," to quote the Bible. Forgive the introduction of a Bible quotation into this melange of ideas. I did find it well descriptive though.

Just some thoughts.

 

chodpa: I'm sorry if I made some mistakes. I know another translation of Krishna: All-attracting.

 

It is said in Bhagavadgita that Sri Krishna came to this world approximately 5000 years ago and gave as this wonderful book, so we can learn how to get from this world of suffering.

As soon as Sri Krishna is the Supreme God, He is our dad actually and the devotional service, which we as the living entities render to Him is eternal. That's what I meant by the oldest religion in the world.

It is also very hard to attain liberation from the materialistic conception of life by trying to merge into Krishna. In this service to Krishna, we engage our senses to please Him. The primal state of a living being is that he loves himself the most. By loving Krishna we don't need to artificially cut off our senses, but engage them in a natural way. It is easier to love a person than trying to love something impersonal. That's why we prepare food to Krishna, bathe the dieties, offer Him flowers as though He was present all the time. We love His various forms.
Bhagavadgita clearly states that we will never loose our individuality. Everybody has a different karma, which is the result of activities from our past lives. Even though Krishna is present within us in the form of Supersoul, we are not Him. We are not God, because we are not ignorance-free. This is not dual relationship -it is a relationship in the absolute realm, but we cannot understand that by our materialistic (dual) senses. Absolute means everything is Krishna. Even our decisions. We have only one choice: to surrender love to Him, eveything else is controled by three material modes (ignorance, passion and goodness) Had we not have individuality, we would have have difficulties to develop love for Krishna -and love to Krishna that is the basic method for attaining liberation. It is a little game Krishna plays on us. We need to work on ourselves, we need to attain love.
This is from Bhagavadgita, which is the part of Mahabharata and so the part of the Vedas. This is what Krishna Himself says:

vedähaà samatétäni

vartamänäni cärjuna

bhaviñyäëi ca bhütäni

mäà tu veda na kaçcana

veda—know; aham—I; sama—equally; atétäni—past; vartamänäni—present; ca—and; arjuna—O Arjuna; bhaviñyäëi—future; ca—also; bhütäni—living entities; mäm—Me; tu—but; veda—knows; na—not; kaçcana—anyone.

TRANSLATION

O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.

PURPORT

Here the question of personality and impersonality is clearly stated. If Kåñëa, the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is considered by the impersonalists to be mäyä, to be material, then He would, like the living entity, change His body and forget everything in His past life. Anyone with a material body cannot remember his past life, nor can he foretell his future life, nor can he predict the outcome of his present life; therefore he cannot know what is happening in past, present and future. Unless one is liberated from material contamination, he cannot know past, present and future.

Unlike the ordinary human being, Lord Kåñëa clearly says that He completely knows what happened in the past, what is happening in the present, and what will happen in the future. In the Fourth Chapter we have seen that Lord Kåñëa remembers instructing Vivasvän, the sun-god, millions of years ago. Kåñëa knows every living entity because He is situated in every living being’s heart as the Supreme Soul. But despite His presence in every living entity as Supersoul and His presence beyond the material sky, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the less intelligent cannot realize Him as the Supreme Person. Certainly the transcendental body of Çré Kåñëa is not perishable. He is just like the sun, and mayä is like the cloud. In the material world we can see that there is the sun and that there are clouds and different stars and planets. The clouds may cover all these in the sky temporarily, but this covering is only apparent to our limited vision. The sun, moon and stars are not actually covered. Similarly, mäyä cannot cover the Supreme Lord. By His internal potency He is not manifest to the less intelligent class of men. As it is stated in the third verse of this chapter, out of millions and millions of men, some try to become perfect in this human form of life, and out of thousands and thousands of such perfected men, hardly one can understand what Lord Kåñëa is. Even if one is perfected by realization of impersonal Brahman or localized Paramätmä, he cannot possibly understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Çré Kåñëa, without being in Kåñëa consciousness.​

 

I understand and Lord Krishna says that demons are always pretending that they're very religious. That's the most deceitful, because they make God look ugly. Hare Krishna isn't a religion. It is a service. Either you love God, or not. You cannot pretend that. And yes, even though we should learn from the books and teachers, the most important is to find Supersoul (Krishna, God) within. You need to feel it. By chanting mahamantra (see below you can experience the pleasure, which comes with it right away. Nothing else is needed. Just your voice and sincere wish to love Him.You don't even need to believe in Krishna and yet it brings liberation from your karma and love from Krishna, the great blue-skinned guy.

 

I very much understand what you are saying...I have chanted/sung mantras before as well as hymns...they indeed do make you feel as if the world has been lifted from your shoulders...I think, after all of this time, that to sing and to listen to the stories is about the only part I like about organized religion...no one else can tell you how to love Him...you just do...by loving everyone around you...no matter how hard it is...you kinda love Him too...because I have been taught...as I'm sure we all have...that He is in us all... Thank you for your kind words I think through learning each others cultures and customs and that they are not too different after all will help us to bring the peace in this world that we seek. Its a hard job...but thanks to understanding people like you guys...we might be able to inch it along even more...

...hare krisna and peace be with you all

 

thanks for your hope & for your great soul peace to you and all the world. We are not different from each other.

 

I have respect for the Hare Krishnas, I really do. I respect all religions. But being a Hindu who follows the philiosophies of Advaita Vedanta, I cannot help but feel that they missed the point somewhere. It is said that God (Brahman, the Immensity) is without name, without form, indeed It is beyond all form because It created all form. Saying that Krishna is actually the supreme godhead is missing the point of that.
I was given a book about India with a Hare Krishna view on things. They spoke of the teachings that the supreme godhead is as I said, beyond all names and forms. And they even say that there are teachings that say that all forms of God are but different aspects of the supreme god. But then on the next page they talk about how in the Mahabharata Krishna says that in fact he is the supreme godhead and all other gods must bow to him. To me this is just missing the whole point. I really don't mean to offend. I love Krishna too! But I know that he is one of the many manifestations of God as are the other deities.

 

well, why do you think Hare Krishnas missed the point? There is only one person, who controls all demigods. If you praying to demigods so you can have something -that's materialism. Of course it works, but materialistic way of thinking is an attachment to maya. We can never understand Krishna, because he is the creator of everything, but we can love Him. Love is the most important thing. If you don't love, you're practically doomed to selfishness. If you read some of the Krishna related literature, you may think that they say two different things, but the truth is Krishna is everything -even the impersonal philosophy. He's also maya. He's the controler of the three modes of material nature: ignorance, passion, goodness. We think in the terms of "me" and the world, the truth is Krishna is me and Krishna is the world. Brahmajoti is the radiance, which comes from Krishna. If you want to merge with it, you actually can, but there's still long way to go, until you may find the blessing in form of devotioanl service to lord Krishna. Hare Krishnas serve to Krishna directly. Why should you go by stairs, when you can use an elevator? -as Srila Prabhupada said Why should we pray to gods for material things, when these things are the reason of our entanglement in this world full of misery? Love Krishna and selfishness will fade away.

Thank you for your respect for Krishnas. I respect you

 

Let me explain what I mean more in depth. In the upanishads there is the idea of Brahman. That is not so much a name for a God, but a way to talk about the formless aspect of God. The formless aspect is what underlies all names, all forms, everything in existence. It has to be beyond form because it created all forms. And it has no one face, no one personality that we can know because it is beyond all forms. Let's put it this way...if God created everything then God would not be subject to those laws. If God created time and space and all the dualities of this world, then God is not subject to those. If God were, then something else would have created those things and then we're not talking about the same thing anymore. See what I mean?
That's the point I'm talking about. That the supreme godhead is beyond all forms because it created all forms. Calling it Krishna and giving it an image and a personality is missing that point. And if the Hare Krishnas are talking about the same ideas, then calling it Krishna instead of Brahman is just an ego thing. Just like saying "my god is the real god and yours is not." Doesn't matter what name you call it if you are talking about the same thing. And if they do have all those same ideas then its still Hinduism, they just call Brahman a different name and have some different practices...like all other Hindus. To me the Hare Krishnas are no different than the Vaishnavites or Shaivites or any other sect that jumps up and says "No...God is called by this name, not that name!" And they can't get along because of it. And they're missing the whole point. See what I mean? And again...I do not want to offend. It just makes me so sad to see people not getting along when they're talking about the same things and just using different words for it. There are many paths up the mountain but they all lead to the same summit.

Try reading the Upanishads, Alain Danielou's theories of Hindu Polytheism, and the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. They explain it much better than I can.

 

Dear NightOwl1331,

Thanks for the beautiful post. Please calm down.

From your post I can easily understand that Sri Ramakrishna is talking through you. Such is His grace and compassion. You are the blessed one.

It is so tiring and frustrating at times that we love the same God but we behave as if it is not one but all different Gods. Just different names have caused all the problems because we have not seen God. By the names we want to establish that my name is right and my God is the complete God.

Had it been only the formless God(Brahma) probably there would have been lesser problems.

I love Krishna, I just love Him. I love Him not because He is God, how do I know whether He is God or not until and unless someday He tells me. I just cannot help but love Him. I do not know the reason. We all love babies, why we do not know.We do not ask for the babies' names,religion, cast or creed.
We just love babies.

Let others also love Kali, Bishnu, Allah or Christ as intensely as possible.

Why bring the name of God. God is a far distant thing.
Let us first of all learn to love with all sincerity and heart then God will come near in our hearts to tell us what is what.

Interpretation of the Gita or any other book should be easily understood by all of us but it is not possible without His grace and compassion.That is the divine game. Krishna says He is God and He is in the heart of every being, He is everything, without Him nothing can exist.Let us accept if we believe in the Gita.

So Krishna is inside a goat also and the goat's legs are His legs,head is His head, mouth is His mouth and eyes are His eyes and so on, meaning that He only has become the goat. Now if anybody says that goat is God, should we jump up and say ,"No,only Krishna is God."?

I love SleepingJeeva. I am sure he knows Krishna only and intensely loves Him.
By His Grace and compassion he shall realize that I have no intention to hurt him or anybody else. I myself cannot do without Krishna.

I miss Looking Somewhere Distant. He could have greatly helped all of us. If he has changed name I hope, he will show up now.

Jaya Gopala, Jaya Govinda, Jaya Murari.

With love and prayers............Kumar.

 

oh thank you gdkumar deeply.

you're so helpful! I wouldn't say it in a better way. I'm always so happy when you join this discussion. I love you. You said it all. Love is the most important thing. If you love everything that means if you love God, you cannot be selfish. And if you really do love God, you have no problems with Krishna, or Jesus, Allah, Budha names, because it is the same thing. I feel that by the help of Gita, you can be better in whatever God you believe in. You can be better Christian for example. Form and name are still in our material terminology, because one is percieved by eye and the second by ear. Our senses are limited, so we can never see/hear the complete truth, but when you love God, you see Him everywhere. Please love God, because that is the only true love. Haribol!

I miss Looking Somewhere Distant's great insights too, let's hope he will return. wonder where he is.

 

I love you too jdkumar! And sleeping jiva...I very much agree with and love you too! Love and hugs all around

 

Such is the power of Krishna related topics

You're certainly a special person SvgGrdn Beauty. May the wisdom and love never abandon you. As Sri Krishna says: "The one who does good won't be ever overcome by evil."

I also would like to thank NightOwl and please her to continue with her points of view, so we can discuss more.

 

You're the 3rd person to tell me that in the past month. A great change has come over me recently. I can see the unity of all religions and it brings such pain to me that people are always in disagreement. I have this feeling that I want to tell everyone that everything is fine; there is no need to worry! God does exist! I see God in everything! God is not some guy up in the clouds, God is right here. We are a part of God and we have never been nor will we ever be seperate from It. I just want to somehow help people to understand that. I think one of the first steps is to realize that names are just that...names. People seem to forget that. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.
I am familiar with the Bhagavad Gita, but I think the message is more important than the fact that someone with the name "Krishna" said it. God has many faces in its form as the Divine Multiplicity. I happen to love Krishna more than I can possibly express, but I do not think that is God's ultimate form because I feel that God is beyond form. God is beyond human ideas and we could never grasp the ultimate reality of God. That would be like trying to see the whole universe from where I'm sitting here in Florida.
It seems that most people see that other people call God by a different name so they feel that those people are wrong and they never look past the names and discover the underlying unity of all religions. I see much more similarity in religions than I do difference. As I've said...there are many paths up the mountain, but they all lead to the same summit. I think that whatever path you're on is fine, but problems arise when people start to feel that there is only one path. Here is how I see it...
We can never see the whole form of a statue at one time. We never see the whole of any 3-dimentional object at one time. We can see the back, the front, the profile...but not all at once. But we can walk around the statue and build up an image in our mind of what the whole form looks like, but we never actually see the whole form at one time. And if one person were to look only at the front and one look only at the back then those two people would surely be in some disagreement about what that statue is like. You could say that God is like that statue, we can never grasp the whole form. And the different paths and methods are like looking at God from different angles. And people may arrive at seemingly contradictory conslusions because they are only seeing one angle. But if we can understand that these are just different angles then we can start to build up some conception of the true nature of things. And that, to me, is a beautiful thing...the thought that there are all these people on earth trying to get a glimpse of those different angles. That is how my mind works at least.

 

Dear Sleeping Jiva,

Thank you so much for your kind post.
Honestly it is a great relief for me.

Suddenly there is a blissful feeling, everything is so beautiful. A feeling of getting drowned into the ocean of love and serenity. Thank you again.

Glory to my Guru and all for enabling me to experience this feeling.

With love........Kumar.

 

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

Thank you for your kind post.

They say, simplicity is the best quality of a human being and simplicity is the first sign of enlightment. My dear beautiful soul, your simplicity touches my heart.

May God fulfil all your cherished wishes.
With love.......Kumar.

 

Dear NightOwl1331,

It is a wonderful post! Thank you.

You have already gone so deep into the subject! No wonder, your vision is so clear. To attain your level of understanding people spend their whole lives. It is so pleasing to note that you are so rich in your thoughts at this tender age.

I find a surprising similarity with Know1nozme.I find same maturity, style of writing and command over the language.

However, you have said it all so beautifully.It has immensely helped me and I hope this post will help and enrich all other seekers as well.

May God fulfil all your wishes.

With love........Kumar.

 

Aww...all you guys...thank you so much. I am indeed learning new things and I thank you all for your beautiful words as I try and find my way back from the dark cloud of materialism...this time it is with new eyes and new discovery...

...you are all indeed beautiful souls...keep it up...it is people like you who have the power to change the world!

 

Nightowl: iI really liked your thingy about 3-dimensional objects and how we can never see them in the whole. That's truly the most interesting realization I've bumped into for the recent time.

I was reading Bhagavadgita the other night and I was amazed how clearly Srila Prabhupada explains the importance of personal understanding of God. In fact Krishna says that it is possible to go by the impersonal path too. My point is, Hare Krishna can never be a religion because it as the only one accepts all manifestations of God. Therefore it's not true, that it would claim Krishna as the only way. It explains why this love to God is so important by logical explanations. Even though, the devotional service is hard to understand if you don't practice it, there are plenty of arguments which explain it for non-devotees in the books of Srila Prabhupada.
Moreover, I have to react on your claim that Bhagavadgita is manipulated by people. The message is carried from generation to generation by parampara -succession of the spiritual teachers. In order to preserve the words of Krishna as they were uttered by Him on the battlefield of Kuruksetra, the message of Bhagavadgita was given to Arjuna, who heard this message as first, then Arjuna gave it his disciple and so on until it reached Srila Prabhupada. These teachers weren't cheaters, they not only understood this message on intellectual platform, they lived by the principles of devotional service. There are lot of people, who changed the words of Bhagavadgita so they can appeal to masses -they left out some of the strict regulations of Krishna so they can achieve material succes(either fame, money or both). But the Gita with commentary from Srila Prabhupada is unchanged and appears in the exact same form as it was explained by Sri Krishna Himself. Of course you can say that it is not truth, that Vaishnavas adjusted Krishna's words but you need to prove that before accusing of such a horrible crime.


Here's the passage I've found in Gita, I hope you'll understand it more after. (and you'll see the point of Hare Krishnas )


TEXT 5

TEXT

©e-Xaae_iDak-TarSTaezaMaVYa¢-aSa¢-ceTaSaaMa( )
AVYa¢-a ih GaiTaduR"%& dehviÙrvaPYaTae )) 5 ))

kleço ’dhikataras teñäm

avyaktäsakta-cetasäm

avyaktä hi gatir duùkhaà

dehavadbhir aväpyate

kleçaù—trouble; adhikataraù—more troublesome; teñäm—of them; avyakta—unmanifested; äsakta—being attached; cetasäm—of those whose minds; avyaktä—unmanifested; hi—certainly; gatiù duùkham—progress is troublesome; dehavadbhiù—ofthe embodiments; aväpyate—achieve.

TRANSLATION

For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progrese in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.

PURPORT

The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jïäna-yogés, and persons who are in full Kåñëa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogés. Now, here the difference between jïäna-yoga and bhakti-yoga isdefinitely expressed. The process of jïäna-yoga, although ultimately bringing one to the same goal, is very troublesome, whereas the path of bhakti-yoga, the process of being in direct service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is easier and is natural for the embodied soul. The individual soul is embodied since time immemorial. It is very difficult for him to simply theoretically understand that he is not the body. Therefore, the bhakti-yogé accepts the Deity of Kåñëa as worshipable because there is some bodily conception fixed in the mind, which can thus be applied. Of course, worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His form within the temple is not idol worship. There is evidence in the Vedic literature that worship may be saguëa and nirguëa—of the Supreme possessing or not possessing attributes. Worship of the Deity in the temple is saguëa worship, for the Lord is represented by material qualities. But the form of the Lord, though represented by material qualities such as stone, wood, or oil paint, is not actually material. That is the absolute nature of the Supreme Lord.

A crude example may be given here. We may find some mailboxes on the street, and if we post our letters in those boxes, they will naturally go to their destination without difficulty. But any old box, or an imitation, which we may find somewhere, which is not authorized by the post office, will not do the work. Similarly, God has an authorized representation in the Deity form, which is called arca-vigraha. This arca-vigraha isan incarnation of the Supreme Lord. God will accept service through that form. The Lord is omnipotent and all-powerful; therefore, by His incarnation as arca-vigraha, He can accept the services of the devotee, just to make it convenient for the man in conditioned life.​

So, for a devotee, there is no difficulty in approaching the Supreme immediately and directly, but for those who are following the impersonal way to spiritual realization, the path is difficult. They have to understand the unmanifested representation of the Supreme through such Vedic literatures as the Upaniñads, and they have to learn the language, understand the nonperceptual feelings, and they have to realize all these processes. This is not very easy for a common man. A person in Kåñëa consciousness, engaged in devotional service, simply by the guidance of the bona fide spiritual master, simply by offering regulative obeisances unto the Deity, simply by hearing the glories of the Lord, and simply by eating the remnants of foodstuffs offered to the Lord, realizes the Supreme Personality of Godhead very easily. There is no doubt that the impersonalists are unnecessarily taking a troublesome path with the risk of not realizing the Absolute Truth at the ultimate end. But the personalist, without any risk, trouble, or difficulty, approaches the Supreme Personality directly. A similar passage appears in Çrémad-Bhägavatam. It is stated there that if one has to ultimately surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead (This surrendering process is called bhakti.), but instead takes the trouble to understand what is Brahman and what is not Brahman and spends his whole life in that way, the result is simply troublesome. Therefore it is advised here that one should not take up this troublesome path of self-realization because there is uncertainty in the ultimate result.​

A living entity is eternally an individual soul, and if he wants to merge into the spiritual whole, he may accomplish the realization of the eternal and knowledgeable aspects of his original nature, but the blissful portion is not realized. By the grace of some devotee, such a transcendentalist, highly learned in the process of jïäna-yoga, may come to the point of bhakti-yoga, or devotional service. At that time, long practice in impersonalism also becomes a source of trouble, because he cannot give up the idea. Therefore an embodied soul is always in difficulty with the unmanifest, both at the time of practice and at the time of realization. Every living soul is partially independant, and one should know for certain that this unmanifested realization is against the nature of his spiritual blissful self. One should not take up this process. For every individual living entity the process of Kåñëa consciousness, which entails full engagement in devotional service, is the best way. If one wants to ignore this devotional service, there is the danger of turning to atheism. Thus this process of centering attention on the unmanifested, the inconceivable, which is beyond the approach of the senses, as already expressed in this verse, should never be encouraged at any time, especially in this age. It is not advised by Lord Kåñëa.​