Guys, I need your help...why multinational corporations are bad

of course there is no capitalist economist that thinks marx is genius -- coz they are capitalist... of course in school they wont bring up marx... why educate the youth about something that the government would hate for you to learn about?

Education system is bullshit when it comes to teaching kids about alternative philosophy...

Capitalists discredit marxism because it does not bring in PROFIT to the country -- but that isnt what marxism is about... Any capitalist economist will tell you marxism doesnt work because it doesnt bring mass amounts of wealth like Capitalism does -- but they miss the point... marxist economy isnt about creating wealth, its completely seperate from that...

And actually, when it comes to college professors... there are a lot that believe in marx... i could cite a few teachers that got extreme pressure and the media ont here nuts for teaching their students marxism.

The government itself does not want the youth to be educated about marxism, they would rather have you read some biased paragraph from a heavily capitalist source, and have you think that is all you need to know about Marxism.

but back on subject, because this issue isnt about marxism vs capitalism...

MNC's are evil, you cannot justify them at all... no matter the average the fact is, people who work under MNC's are victims of 1. Child Labor 2. Sexual Assault 3. Physical Assault 4. Low wages

Wealthy countries are determined by how much wealth the RULING classes have... but if you look at the countries MNC's are in, you see a larger gap between rich & poor, and the poorer people are struggling so much...

Supporting MNC's is the most IMMORAL, and UNAMERICAN thing you can do..
MNC's go against the foundations of America... the foundations that put an end to child labor and poor labor laws...

And all of this just so americans can buy cheap commodities they don't really even need.

 

and supporting marxism in an economics class wont give you a bad mark..
when i was in economics i was OPENLY communist/marxist to everyone in the class... we had some great debates... and the teacher thought i was one of her best students... we debated a lot and she said I was a really smart guy, a deep thinker... Not all economics teachers are vigiliant against keeping communism away from people...

You call marxism a "failed theory" yet you fail to understand the real teachings of Marx... these teachings that have NEVER been put into effect or even sought after by 'communist' nations.
You cannot say a theory and set of ideals that have never been attempted is failed -- they have yet to exist... this philosophy has yet to be tried and tested... and the labor theory of value has as much credit to it as any other economic theory.



To immediately discredit marx, and call his theories failed... his ideals washed up and untrue... is to follow every single biased report on Marxism... It is essentially, pure ignorance... go to any heavily biased website and read about marxism -- you will see two things...
1. you will see that they immediately discredit marx, you will see that they use adjectives and describing words that bring about an extremely heavy cloud of hatred towards the entire philosophy
2. You will see that they fail to bring up quotes from marx, and discredit them -- you will see that they offer no actual argument against marxism... the reports are just peoples biased opinions on their incredibly small knowledge of marxism... you will see the same lies being said, over and over, in every single one of these reports..
they will use the same arguments over and over... the exact same arguments we hear in hipforums from those who like to argue against marx... those same arguments that have no merrit

Here is what you w ill never see:
You will never see someone who is debating against marxism... you will never see them take exerpts from marxist writing and discredit them...
you will never see a capitalist quote marx and actually argue that quote... it will never happen

The only way people know how to argue against marxism, is to use the same, cliche, bland arguments over and over again that are in every single anti-marx writing in america.

This is why I do not give those who disagree with me a shred of hope...
They fail to argue against REAL marxism... they NEVER quote him... they NEVER take a letter, or book written by these philosophers and discredit it..

There arguments always come from the top of there head, or a biased report on marxism that offers no real debate. You people debate against Totalitarianism, dictatorships, and complete government control... you fail to argue against Marxism... there hasnt been one of you that has argued against marxism on hipforums to this day... because you cannot see what marxism means.

when a 17 year old kid can sit down and argue with an economics teacher for hours on end, bringing up real historical dates, and quotes from Marx... exerpts from the writing... this is when you know you have gained that teachers utmost respect...
they arent looking for someone who shares there ideals, they are looking for someone who understand what Economics is about, and is prepared to debate their beliefs to the core, with actual facts, instead of broad generalizations and statements that are often on hipforums.

What kind of idiot would argue christianity without having read the bible?
What kind of idiot would argue evolution without reading the origin of species?
What kind of idiot would argue Freudian theory without having read Freud?
What kind of idiot would argue Buddhism without having read the TBOTD?

This is my ideas towards debating marx... if you want to argue against me, you have to educate yourself first... otherwise you are an idiot.. like the shriveling atheist who hasnt read the bible, like the ignorant creationist who hasnt learned Evolution...

Sit back and truly think, how can one fight something in which they do not see? How can a blind man hit a bullseye ? How can a ship sail without wind?


Its all about education, and elevating your mind... if you dont take both sides -- even for a second -- you are destined to wallow in your own ignorance... your own hypocricy.

Marxists are not bad people, like the rest of the world... we try to do what is best for the world... we only have the peoples hearts and wellbeing in our mind... We follow what is in our hearts, whether it is a hopeless dream or not... we follow it, becuase it is what is inside of us... its what makes us, us.

 

They are unscientific, as they don't shead preconception in order to get a clear view of knowledge. Since alot of Capitalist economists don't practice radical doubt, they fail to seperate social doctrine from their finding, so they say things like "greed is human nature", when there is no evidince, that the evidince of this greed: is human nature, from society, or even from capitalism it self.

This is why a number of scientist, find mainstream economics more of a religion, then a true science. Economist use truisms without using radical doubt to verify.

You can't not negate or affirm Marxism based on the data, therefore there is the possibility of Marx being wrong, and the possibility of Marx being right.

Again insufficient data, Capitalism can be brutial, for example Augesto Pinochet. You still have the possiblity of Marx being right and the possiblity of Marx being wrong. From a scientific stand point you can't rule out Marxism. Therefore anyone that calls his theories "dead wrong" is only giving a opion.

The idea that might is right, is flawed. If anti-capitlist aliens blow up Earth killing all of humanity, and humans turn out to be the only capitalist race in the universe, does that prove capitialism is wrong?

 

any dictatorship will turn into a savage police state like the USSR... economic philosophy has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Anyone else find this funny? So many people have decided -- BEFORE reading marxism -- that they are against it...
Now that does not make any sense.
Bunch of friggin morons.

What is another name for someone who supports MNC's? A child rapist.

 

I checked out Corp Watch already, in fact it was one of the sites the teacher had listed for us to use...some of the stuff on their is sick...like the article about McDonalds and other fast-food places. I wrote a lot about them in my paper. I hope to expand on some issues, add another issue, and be done w/ it tomorow. As for stoppign researching this when I'm done with the paper--I won't! I'm hooked now, although I don't understand some of the stuff.

I think I'll post my paper either tonight or tomorow.

 

Speaking about Communism...my mom was saying something about the other day. Because I asked her why everyone talks about it like it's a horrible thing...and she said that it wasn't a horrible thing, just corrupt people running it. So why do peopel think it's such a bad thing? I mean...if it was all fair and such, it doesn't seem like too bad of an idea.

 

Because most "alternative philosophy" is just stupid. Teaching Marxism (as an alternative but possible theory) in an economics class would be like teaching creationism (as an alternative but possible theory) in a biology class. While the proponents of both communism and creationism would love for schools to teach that their ideas have equal merit with the more popular views, they simply do not. Teaching that communism and capitalism (or creationism and evolution) are theories of equal merit does a disservice to the overwhelming evidence that points to the latter. As George Orwell said, "The Catholic and the communist are alike in assuming that an opponent cannot be both honest and intelligent."

Fine, but it's not an economic theory then. It's just a religion.

How many economics professors nationwide actually believe this nonsense? Very few. The fact that you hear about them in the media indicates that they're rare.

It isn't a question of what "the government wants." All the evidence points to the conclusion that Marxism does not work.

I love how you're quick to gloss over the failings of communism, but you can't recognize the fact that #2-3 are easily preventable and have nothing at all to do with economics. #1 and #4 will no longer be problems as the economy improves.

For the most part, the same companies that operate in Indonesia and Mexico operate in the United States. You're going to have to be a little more specific than "the countries MNCs are in" if you're trying to make a point.

Child labor ended on its own when the economy had grown to a point where it was no longer needed. And it was Henry Ford - the head of a MNC - who did more than any union or specific person to improve the condition of workers. He paid his workers far above the market rate in the hopes that they'd also become his customers.

I laugh every time I read someone who writes this kind of stuff ON THEIR COMPUTER and sends it out ON THE INTERNET. You don't really NEED your computer, but you have it anyway, so drop the holier-than-thou attitude.

 

The very nature of communism virtually guarantees that corrupt people will ALWAYS be running it, no matter what. It's not just a coincidence that every communist revolution has quickly turned into a totalitarian dictatorship. There's a REASON for it. Theoretically, everyone is perfectly equal in communism...but power is NEVER evenly distributed. Someone will quickly gain a power advantage.

To redistribute wealth on such a massive scale as communism demands, you need an omnipotent, omnipresent government. There's simply no other way to accomplish the goals of communism. When you have an omnipotent, omnipresent government, you have Big Brother breathing down your neck.

To say that it's entirely the fault of the individuals running it is too simplistic. It'd be like saying that government-run censorship can be a great idea, as long as the people doing the censoring are honest.

 

your overwhelming evidence only points out flaws in political philosophy rather than economic.

a bigger percentage of professors believe in it than humans as a whole... which shows actually educating yourself about it will make you re-think your stance on it.

Lol... marxism hasnt been tried... what evidence proves marxism doesnt work?
Show me it.

What failings of communism? Like it being thrown around like america uses the word Freedom to get people to support its nonsense?

the countries that their SWEATSHOPS operate in are far different than the countries that their businesses run...
if you look at statistics of where the sweatshops are, their economy is NOT improving becuase of the SWEATSHOPS... MNCs are only good for the companies in which their goods are SOLD.

it was never needed, child labor is simply immoral no matter where you go. as these are the supposed "morals" americans have, they should live up to them...

It isnt about what I have, it's about what kind of bullshit America puts through the world just so we can have these things... an din this economy, i need a computer, coz computer related jobs are the only i like. if i can get it, might as well... doesnt disprove my ideas or make MNC's any better...
i cant believe people actually find these corporations justified... the owners of the corporations should be hung.

 

what is this nature of communism you talk about?
Communism is not supposed to have anyone running it.

Thats not an arguement against communism that is an argument for it... in a communist society there is no government and power is evenly distributed.. this just shows that the leaders of these revolutions were spouting marxism only to betray the people and give them nothing like a marxist system. it doesnt disprove communism or make it any less merit, it proves that people who lead revolutions normally cant be trusted, no one can be trusted to gain power...

Lol... such bullshit... here are your bullshit adjectives that simply arent true...
"massive scale" marxism mentions nothing about the scale
"communism demands" communism doesnt demand everything, people should want it, and change into it on their own will

Most cpaitalist propagandist shit uses idiotic describing words like that to make people think communism is SO evil.

Just because these so called "communist" countries later became HUGE government police states doesnt mean that is the intention of the Marxist/Communist Philosophy... in fact marxism specifically warns AGAINST this... You are using the thing Marxism is completely AGAINST to discredit it... that makes no sense

It is entirely the fault of not the individuals running it, but the fact that it is being run by individuals... cant you see that? That is what Marxism is NOT about... No gov't is supposed to be "ran" in a marxist society.

that is nonsensical garbage .

 

It's no secret that professors are more left-wing than the average person. Now let's compare ECONOMICS professors with professors AS A WHOLE. There are almost NO economics professors who believe in Marxism or anything even close to it.

I guess that shows that actually educating yourself about economics will make you re-think your stance on it.

You say Marxism hasn't been tried. I say it has been tried and immediately failed. Whichever the case may be, either way is an indictment in itself of the failings of Marxism.

WHY do you think Marxism has never been tried? Could there maybe be a REASON there has never been what you would call a "Marxist country" (and I would call an "impossible utopia")? Or have people just not got around to it yet? It's been over a hundred years.

1. Communism squelches innovation and productivity, because people have no incentive to do any work at all.

2. Communism requires wealth redistribution, which requires a large government to work, which will necessarily intrude on the lives of its people, which will necessarily become totalitarian.

Really? China and India are two of the fastest-growing economies in the world. Indonesia routinely outpaces the American economy. Or did you mean that sweatshop countries have stagnant economies, except for the ones that don't?

It was needed in America at one time, and it is needed in third-world nations now. No, it's NOT "simply immoral no matter where you go," no matter how much your arrogant, Americentric value system might say it is. There is a REASON people in the third-world have their kids work. There was a REASON people in pre-1920s America had their kids work.

It proves, A) you're a hypocrite, and B) there are lots of people (most people) who think that they "need" things like computers when they clearly do not. So stop pretending that you're so much better than other Americans who buy cheap products.

You claim to be a logical person, so let's look at this logically:

1. You claim that the workers are exploited, because their only options are work for a MNC or starve to death.
2. You want the MNCs to stop "exploiting" (employing) the workers.
3. Looking back at the options in #1, and subtracting the options in #2, what option is now available to those workers?

 

Impossible. Someone is ALWAYS running the show, no matter what kind of society you live in.

And how would you prevent them? If you somehow started out in a position where power was evenly distributed (which again, is impossible), it would just be a political game of chess before someone became more powerful than someone else. How can you POSSIBLY think that everyone will just be happy to have the same status as everyone else, for all eternity? Even if it wasn't in human nature to be greedy, what happens when a socially deviant person and his friends want more power than their neighbors?

Even if your commune consisted of only two people, the "government" would be huge in comparison.

Semantics.

I don't particularly care whether it's the "intention" of Marxist philosophy to have a police state; that's the end result...every time.

Similarly, government-sponsored censorship of smut will be a great thing for society. We'll let them have total power over all media.

P.S. Please don't abuse this, feds.

Then explain how this massive redistribution of wealth will happen. If I live in a mansion and my neighbor lives in a mud hut, does he just come and help himself? What if I tell him no? What recourse does he have if there's no government?

 

No actually when is aid professor i meant economic professors... more of them are marxists as a percentage then society as a whole.

utopia... another word Stalin used... kinda interesting it winds up in the mouths of capitalists debating against marx

and let me correct myself -- marxism has never been tried on a large scale
it has been tried and succeeded on a small scale
it hasnt existed yet on a large scale because that would require a large number of people to want it
STILL, altho it may not exist on a large scale, that does not mean its philosophy has no merit... it does work on small scale, and if someones views match up with marxist philosophy, there is nothing wrong with believing those things... america has done a good job making everyone paranoid over communism... they are after our precious bodily fluids... cant watch the smurfs cuz there gonna make your children commies... and more bullshit like that..
And because it works on a small scale, calling it a completely failed philosophy, and karl marx a moron, has absolutely no merit.

YOU have no incentive to do shit, because you are a materialist... in a communist society, you'[d probably sit on your ass ... but were not all like you... and some of us have incentive to do those things... for the good of society, for our friends and family...go say that to an inventor living in a commune and he'll slap you.

The only thing communism requires is the absense of government and the absense of private property... no huge government is needed in order to get rid of private property... so thats not true... you are assuming we'd take everyones money/belongings and redistribute them when its more likely in a marxist society that we would get rid of money and share our belongings...

Sources, and I want statistics not just from the wealthy top percentage that are doing better : D

The only reason its NEEDED is because the people make about nothing... and if they send their children to work they can get maybe a little extra nothing... that doesnt mean its MORAL or right... all these MNC's woul dhave to do is pay their workers a little more... it wouldnt really effect their profits too much, and the people could live without having to send their children to sexually abusive sweatshops.. but instead they keep their wages to almost nothing because they know thats what they can do... they arent creating competition, becuase no one is paying any more than another employer...

I know I dont need it... but sense i am living in America, the belly of the beast, there is no reason not to indulge in these things.. if i can afford them... is ure every human that works in sweatshops would buy these products if they could too... that doesnt make sweatshops RIGHT, it just means that we have no real choice because no one has the balls to step up to MNC's because they essentially control the government with their fat wallets.

Actually many people who work for a MNC still starve to death... go figure

I want to MNCs to pay their workers more, i want them to stop physically abusing them... i want them to stop raping the women... keeping them locked in a choice between "WORK FOR US OR DIE" is exploitation at its finest

EXACTLY... they have no choice... that is why it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to end this bullshit... because those people have NO CHOICE... we are more free in america compared to third world dictatorships, we can help people who need it... so we should

 

Not in an anarchist society, which may be a Dream Land... but nothin wrong with dreaming... we all do it.

if the majority of society wants to have equality, they can work toward fighting those who try to rise up and become more powerful by banding together.

Lol... stop putting words in my mouth... Of course not everyones going to agree with the system... thats got nothing to do with it... not everyone agrees with the american system, yet it is existant. you are assuming again that it intends on forcing it on everyone.. for eternity this time... LOL... If you dont want to live in the society, you should be able to move from it.

They either get killed or they move to a capitalist society.

WTF? Communes exist over the world with lots of people and they have no government. Im sorry that just makes no sense.

What about marxist societies in spain? They didnt end up into police states... what about communes all over the world? You are not looking at "every time" you are looking at "every time" its tried for on a large scale.

Communists are anti-censorship.. especially when it comes to smut.

here you go again, using the word massive.
first of all society would build better houses than mud huts, if they had the technology to make mansions.
if you said no, the entire society would be pissed at you... if you needed anything from anyone else, they would deny it to you...
Communism depends that most people living in it would want it... thats precisely why it is not supposed to have a government and precisely why power is supposed to be equally distributed.

 

MNCs have the power to bring real competition and economic growth to these countries, but instead they pay them close to nothing... this is why MNCs are bad... they have the power and money to pay them a lot more, but they simply WONT.

 

Evidence please.

Depends what you mean by "succeeded" I guess. The North American natives who used communism lived in a Dark Age for thousands of years, accomplishing very little. Meanwhile, the Aztecs and Incas who adopted capitalism thrived.

Most people (including American kids who claim to be communists) don't REALLY want it, even if they say they do. Most people think the same way you do, "As long as I'm living in the belly of the beast, I may as well have a computer."

Straw man. No one can disagree with the theories of communism without being a paranoid right-wing jingoist? Please.

Then go live on a commune if it works on a small scale. Why do you want to make entire nations communist?

Yep, most likely.

Oh please, no one is going to work their ass off "for the good of society." Would YOU volunteer to pick up trash all over town, or to purify the sewage system, just because it needed to be done? HELL NO.

99% of people wouldn't work at all if they weren't being rewarded for it.

How would you "share" your belongings without a government to enforce it, if not everyone wanted to?

Well, you can get the economic statistics from the CIA World Factbook. http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

As for the wealth disparity, it is indeed greater than in the United States. However, the situation is improving in many of these countries. Here's an article about India: http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501030901-477977-1,00.html

Oh really? Have you actually studied the wages and the budgets of MNCs, or are you just assuming that because you want to believe it?

That IS competition, genius. They aren't paying any more than anyone else because unlike you, ALL of the companies recognize that they should pay at approximately the market rate.

You say hypocritical things like this to rationalize your own materialism, you fully admit that sweatshop workers would do exactly the same thing, and then still have the nerve to claim that greed isn't in human nature.

Not really. It's mostly unemployed people in Africa who are starving to death.

How much do you want them to pay their workers? $5.15 an hour? That's ridiculous. MNCs already pay more than local companies.

Physical abuse and rape has nothing to do with economics, so I won't respond to this straw man.

Let's suppose, for a second, that you're the CEO of Acme Widgets, and you're about the same size a company as your competitor Evil Inc. Both companies have factories and low-paid employees in Indonesia.

Now let's say that your heart grows three sizes that day, and you decide to double the pay of all your workers. That's going to be a significant expense, and you'll no longer be competitive with Evil Inc., because they didn't double their wages. They'll have more money to devote to trying to drive you out of the market. If you don't fix your business practices, you'll be out of a job...and Evil Inc. will hire all of your former workers, and pay them the market rate. Nothing will have changed for the workers, and you'll be out of business.

You say that we should "end this bullshit," but you don't really say what they should do, other than pay the workers more because you've decided it's "the right thing to do."

 

they didnt see themselves as living in a dark age, everyone was fed and happy for the most part until white people came.. they accomplished enough to survive... aztecs and incas were also much huger tribe as native american tribes were more scattered and varied

I want communism as intended in marxist writing, i dont want stalinism or maoism... an d yes I really want it, whether or not you think I do or not... i itnend living in a commune so yes, i definitely want it. im willing to give up everthing and share with a smalls ociety of people... this makes me a marxist, and i refuse to change my ideas just becuase someone over the internet doesnt agree with it.. you can live like you want, and i will live like i want to.

Its one thing to disagree with communism, it's anotherthing to spread lies about it and make people think we are murderers who want to unleash a massively oppressive government on them, and make people think commies are evil or bad people or stupid... we just have different values.

Who said I did... being a communist doesnt mean you want global or even wide scale communism... i feel that being a communist simply means you want to live in a marxist society... no matter how big or small it is... i do not think people shoul dbe forced into it tho

Who says someone wont be rewarded for work? They are rewarded by everyone elses work... by what they produce as members of the society... for instance, if i were a sanitation worker, iw oul dbe rewarded by going down to the farmer and he would give me food and things like that.

People will work for the good of society if that is in their interest... if sanitation was a problem in society, people wouldnt just sit on there ass and die from disease, they would clean things up. we laready posses the knowledge and resources to have a clean world, theres no reason theyw ould whither away because of communism

the idea is mostly everyone wants to... if there were a smaller amount of people who didnt want to, they would have to because mostly everyone would not want to cooperate with them. thats how its enforced.

thx i will read that soon

How many times have they said things were improving when indeed they were not though... nevertheless iw ill read about india thx for the link.

The market rates are near slavery, the corporations have the power to change the societies into beautiful places... they have the power to pay their workers more than they are now, and they refuse to do so... they want to make the most profit they can, and they make massive profits... but that money ggoes to their checkbooks rather than those working in their sweatshops

How many times do MNC's give their sweatshop workers raises? The economy goes NO where... if MNc's created competition then wages in that country would have rised... thats not the case, they dont go anywhere.

We buy these products not because of Greed, we buy them because we have the choice to and the money available to... It doesnt prove human nature, it proves that both of our societys have no choice other than to support these companies... which only proves the need for reform when it comes to MNC's.

Sweatshop laborers die froms tarvation all the time, sweatshops exist in africa a lot... but a near starving slave laborer isnt very productive, they like to keep them barely alive so they can continue working for them.

Depends on the company and position...not the case with every local company... workers should be payed at least 3 dollars more.

It doesnt have to do with economics... but this isnt about economics, its about MNC's... its not about communism vs capitalism... its just about these corporations... and these corporations are responsible for rape and abuse, so we should work to change things.

Nah, i dont see that happening at all.. if you were to pay your workers more money, you would have more people willing to work for you... MNC's are BILLION dollar corporations, paying their workers a few dollars more will not put much of a damper on the expenses they can use for competitive research.

They should pay their workers more to get the people out of complete poverty, and give them hope and new life.
We should refuse to trade with corporations who abuse their workers and do not live up to the values america claims to have.

 

You can say the same about Capitalism, since the elite few gets free wealth, just for getting other people to do the work, it leads to greed and corruption. Capitalism was build on slavery, today capitalist still gets rich of the backs of workers.