Guns and Nazi Teabaggers

Sig

Again you seem to be just telling me I’m wrong because you think I’m wrong.

This is a bit like having a ‘World Series’ that is mainly only American or the famous headline – Fog in channel continent cut off. It is the insular viewpoint.

Another way of looking at it might be to say it shows a grave misunderstanding of politics by Americans.

You go on to say there are “Republicans that support a national healthcare system” so are you saying that some card carrying republican representative actually have “very left wing positions”? Do these republicans support a nationalised health system?
Publicly funded food programs – why not have a proper welfare state? To me food programs are demeaning.

And to me the best way to get people into work is to have an economic system based on the idea of full employment, like some type of Keynesian system.

But you say support for nationalized health care is a left-wing viewpoint. The thing is that I sure there might be individual gay Republicans and Republicans that support some type of national healthcare system, but as political groups?

Things change, Republicans will probably have to given US demographics, but looked at as a whole and at this time the US has two main political parties of the right.

I’m trying to work out why people want guns for protection. Please read my gun theories and you would see this is all about guns.

 

Let me ask you something Balbus? Have you ever even visited the United States?

I would say as a whole Americans are more murderous rather than access to weapons having anything to do with homicide rates. You are also forgetting that a HUGE amount of the homicides in question, are carried out by non Americans in America. That and 1st or 2nd generation Americans. This place isn't called the melting pot for no reason. Once again you cannot apply your European social values when analyzing the US.

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmhaff/112/11205.htm

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/Sn04304

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime/knife-gun-gang-youth-violence/

http://disarmingbritain.wordpress.com/

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=312101

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf

I'll let you make up your own mind.

Imho, there isn't any correlation between gun restrictions/bans and an increase in knife crime/murder.
There seems to have been a different method for reporting up to 2007.
I would also suspect due to high profile cases the reporting of such crimes is higher, and an increase has been perceived due to media coverage.
It's rare for the media to report declines, they would rather talk about 'skyrocketing numbers'.

Perhaps most graphs are. I think the same factors were taken into account, though. It looks like, atleast, a fair comparison.

Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias

For instance, in Israel, they’re very limited in who is able to own a gun. There are only a few tens of thousands of legal guns in Israel, and the only people allowed to own them legally live in the settlements, do business in the settlements, or are in professions at risk of violence.
Both countries require you to have a reason to have a gun. There isn’t this idea that you have a right to a gun. You need a reason. And then you need to go back to the permitting authority every six months or so to assure them the reason is still valid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...l-and-switzerland-are-not-gun-toting-utopias/

You might not see the 'right' to own a gun as a sociological problem - but imagine if it never was a 'right'. I think I've agreed with you, though.

No. I'm banking on the fact a burglar would rather run away than risk being caught/proceed on with an alarm blaring away. Neighborhood watches just keep an eye out for unusual activity and unfamiliar face loitering around - as well as being a deterrent.
It might not work around here as I don't really know my neighbours.
I think the number of burglar/murders in the UK can be counted on two hands.

Again: I think the number of burglar/murders in the UK can be counted on two hands.

Perhaps there isn't a problem.

I think we are comparing how life is in the UK and the US. Perhaps if we swapped places we would also swap our way of looking at this.
The likelihood of me being murdered in my bed or being murdered in a car-jacking is less than 1percent. It is highly unlikely.

 

Overly individualistic by what measure? Through the mind of a European socialist? Guess what, I'd consider you overly dependent.

Um, more like the use of reality. Sorry to break it to you dude but the world isn't all rainbows and lollipops. Bad things do happen on a regular basis.

If would be CRIMINALS knowing that they might get shot for fucking with a man's property, life, and well being is what you consider intimidation then so be it.

 

I have a question for the British in here that seem to be living in an idealistic bubble.

If someone is coming at you with a gun or knife (and you have nowhere to run), or someone is raping your wife, would you not want a gun then?

 

I don't live in a bubble.
I'm just thinking about what is likely/unlikely.
If it was likely - perhaps I would.
I'm not married/living with anybody.
If I were, and they were being raped - I'd wonder what would have happened to myself for it to get that far.
Have they broken in and knocked me out before I'm awoken?
Am I dead already?
Did the alarm not work?
In the unlikely event of me being face to face with a burglar that is raping my wife - perhaps I would like to have a gun.
I don't want to have a gun just in case something might happen.

 

You mean, like Trayvon Martin? George Zimmerman was the asshole that killed Martin with a gun, and Zimmerman claims he was the victim. Martin didn't have a gun, but if he did, and would have killed Zimmerman, do you really believe Martin would have got off with self defense? Do you think Zimmerman should get off with self defense?

Would you rather be dead, or spend your life in prison as some dudes butt buddy?

 

No.

 

And I went on to explain why I think you're wrong. We are operating from the subjective, Balbus.

Indeed, some do support such a system and that is a left wing position to take on that issue. It, I believe, supports my position that the views held by people in each of the main political parties here in the US run the gamut.

I don't think it is that simple, but that is a topic for another thread.

There is an organization for gay and lesbian Republicans, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_Cabin_Republicans

Again, I disagree with your assertion that we have two right wing political parties that hold all the power here. The platform of the modern Democrat party is anything but right wing. I have given examples of this. You choose to ignore them.

I've read your theories and I have explained how they don't hold true given my experiences and the experiences of others. Regardless, I think we are getting wildly off topic.

 

Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. Either way, the jury is still out in regards to Zimmerman.

 

OdonII

For being killed with a gun it is much more unlikely than 1% that would be one chance in a hundred. Research by the University of Brighton suggest that the chance of being shot dead each year is about one in a million (in England and Wales).

*

Anyway here is someones else -

In the US – population 311.5 million (1) – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009 (2), a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000 (3). Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.
In the UK – population 56.1 million (4) – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12 (5), a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm (6).

References

(1) United States Census Bureau (undated). State and Country Quick Facts. Available from: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
(2) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 310. Murder Victims – Circumstances and Weapons Used or Cause of Death: 2000-2009. Available from http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf
(3) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 306. Crimes and Crime Rates by Type of Offence: 1980-2009. Available from: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0306.pdf
(4) Office for National Statistics (2011). 2011 Census Home. Available from: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/index.html
(5) Home Office (2012). Historical Crime Data. Available from: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/public...tistics/crime-research/historical-crime-data/
(6) Home Office (2010). Home Office Statistical Bulletin. Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2008/09. Available from: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf
(from http://fleshisgrass.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/us-and-uk-murder-rate-and-weapon-updated/)

 

A question to Americans:

It is more likely I would be attacked outside of my home - should I carry a gun with me at all times?

 

Yeah, I know. I didn't want to get too pedantic about it as my living arrangement lowers the chances even further.
No, I'm not in prison.
I just wanted to convey the unlikelihood of it occurring.

Good info, btw.

 

Depends on where you are. If you lived on the south side of Chicago, or in Detroit, it might be a good idea. Where I am from? Not so much. I don't carry a gun with me.

In the end, if has to come down to what makes you feel comfortable.

 

You don't think you need it while walking around the streets but you do while sleeping in your bed? Strange.

I guess so.

 

huh? I don't have my guns with me in bed. I have access to them while I am in my bed, as they are all stored in safes which happen to also be in my bedroom.

 

I know. Sorry. I didn't literally mean in your hand while you slept
I meant, you do have a gun at home, just in case, but you don't have a gun while on the streets, just in case.

 

Indeed. Honestly, the idea of a home invasion wasn't a driving factor in me purchasing my weapons. I mean, odds are, if my home is ever broken into it will be when I am not there. My dog is a better deterrent in that regard. I live and work in very safe areas in regards to crime.

 

Fair enough.

 

Sig
Ok to you having a national healthcare system is a left wing idea - why?

In most of Europe in the main the idea is accepted by most of the right and left wing groups, the argument is about how it should be set up.

You seem to be suggesting that the very idea of a national healthcare system is a left wing in nature and I’m wondering why?

Ok start the other thread. My point remains wouldn’t political means be better at dealing with socio-economic problems.

Oh I’m not ignoring them I’m trying to work out why you think them so beyond just thinking they are. I’m trying to work out how you would tackle socio-economic problems.

Explained have you where exactly – so far your explanation to me seems to be that you think I’m wrong because you are telling me I’m wrong, but please tell me if you have said otherwise because I must of missed it.

Thing is that Deviate is not the only pro-gunner with views that seem to back up to one degree or another, my theories. Maybe you don’t - I haven’t discussed things with you enough, but those ‘just in case’ guns you have are problematic.

So why is the south side of Chicago or Detroit so bad and what do you think could be done to make it better?