Gun ownership itself is a slight mental illness

You're being misleading here; I'm sure you're aware you dont have to be licensed to sell at a gun show or through a private sell

That's a really silly attitude to take. We shouldn't be so egotistical that we're not willing to try what has worked in other countries to fix what is broken in our own.

You're being misleading again (and here I thought we could actually have an honest discussion)
What is the rate of death by gun in the US compared to other countries with stricter gun control? Go on, post those stats. But you know there's no real reason to because we already know.

This is the number of deaths that occur by accidental shootings, not the number of shootings period.

 

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Ever been to a gun show? Obviously not. And FYI, no new sales are private transactions. Get your facts straight before accusing others. Look into "The Four Agreements".

How are other countries handling people with mental disorders and how effective are their methods? Which of those do you suggest we adopt in order to decrease senseless murders?

What do we already know? Please share.

First you seem to claim thousands of accidental shootings every year due to children finding unsecured guns. Or did I misunderstand that? Now you're talking hunting accidents, police accidents, military accidents, and all such accidents combined?

 

I've checked and double checked this and what I'm finding is about 20% of gun sales are through private, unlicensed dealers who have no requirements to run background checks.

As for your last paragraph, you referenced the number of children who die from unsecured guns, I referenced how many children are shot period (not everyone who is shot dies). But I do stand corrected, it appears what I was looking at earlier included both intentional and unintentional from unsecured guns) shootings
This is a good resource to get a full picture of how gun violence affects children
Childhood Firearm Injuries in the United States

The number of children shot overall (not just children who died) from accidental shootings is in the hundreds oer year rather than thousands, but is still too many.
And you have to factor in suicide which counts as intentional but still means children are gaining access to guns somehow.

As for what we already know, we know the rate of mass shootings and gun death in general is significantly higher in the US than countries with stricter gun control. You know this.

As for mental health, I fully support a single payer universal healthcare system to ensure everyone has access to mental health treatment.
What changes to our mental health system do you support?

I dont think every mental illness is treatable though. You cant treat a lack of empathy. Which is why I support red flag laws where mental health professionals must report patients they have reason to believe could pose a danger to others.

 

I don't like how these people are being pigeonholed as "mentally ill." The mentally ill are far more likely to be subjected to violent acts than commit violent acts.

Mass Shootings and Mental Illness: A Teaching Moment?

The problem isn't the mentally ill. The problem is a culture that breeds violence. There is a subtle difference between being mentally ill and just being deranged. Trump talking about "mentally ill monsters" is especially troublesome, and suggesting we should determine which mentally ill people have the potential for violence and locking them up.

I guarantee you you're not going to stop gun violence by cracking down on the mentally ill, as by and large, we're just not violent people. Trump's words are exactly the problem with this country. They lack empathy. They seek to subject others to pain and punishment for no good cause. They're basically psychopathic. What example is he setting? Well he's just a symptom of America's larger problem with psychopaths. It's a psychopathic society. One day you're fantasizing about who you'd like to kill; the next day you're being murdered.

 

I tend to agree
But I think its difficult to call someone who can take multiple lives at once, a mentally healthy person. So they do inevitably get lumped in.
But I agree it's not right to conflate what they do with common mental illnesses like schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. People who have been diagnosed with these illnesses are generally not violent.

I've read before that 1% of the population are psychopaths. But even out of that, only a small percentage of psychopaths become violent. Most just seek positions of power.

But I also dont think psychopaths can be "fixed" or treated..

And then I think some people become violent because they have so much rage inside of them just due to their background and circumstances. And a mental health professional could address that.

And then there's physical changes to the brain that can cause people to act and do erratically, but the physical abnormality will likely never be caught before something bad happens.
I guess most mass shooters that commit suicide shoot themselves in the head so doing thorough research on their brains isnt possible. But it needs to be done. Hopefully it will be done when the ones who did not kill themselves pass away in prison.

 

And yeah then there's just the fact that the US has a culture of violence and our obsession with guns is definitely part of that. Not that I have anything against the average gun owner but I also know people who take it way too far, the whole culture consumes them in a way. And they're usually the ones who arent particularly responsible with their guns.

 

I said all new sales are through licenced dealers requiring checks bla bla bla, none are private. Then you rebuffed that with "gun sales". Go back and look.

What changes to our mental health system do *I* support? Proper identification, monitoring, and confinement. First, identify the brains can and would cause harm to others. Maybe we can discover a DNA test for that, brain scan, or whatever. Find out what anomalies they all have in common. We need a concrete metric to separate the potentially dangerous whackos from those who are simply scamming the system and seeking special consideration. Not all whackos are inapathetic and anger prone.

Next, find a way to monitor the environments and behavior of such affected individuals. Put someone responsible for their behaviour in control of them. Could be parents, others, or hired individuals. But said caretakers sign up to be make sure the watched individual causes no harm to others lest they themselves are criminally processed for whether harm is caused by subject under their care and responsibility. In the absence of the availability of such caretakers, institutions. A working environment where they are incentivised to participate in some productive activity to bolster their self-esteem and help pay for their care where they're confined and watched.

Do we really know that "the rate of mass shootings and gun death in general is significantly higher in the US than countries with stricter gun control"? Convince me. How do we compare to the countries south of us? To Africa, India, middle East, etc? Are European Union countries the only ones with stricter gun restrictions than the US? Something tells me we're not looking at all countries when we parrot that proclaimation.

How about looking at cities across the US. Which have more "mass shootings and gun death in general ", those with lesser or those with greater gun restrictions on their populations? And what does that tell you about the effectiveness of such regulations?

 

You say this, repeatedly, as if mass shootings, murders, or other gun related crime never happens with used guns bought from private sales... Why is that?

 

Yeah I'm not following
20% of gun sales are through unlicensed sellers, meaning 20% of gun buyers arent subject to background checks. I'm not sure what point he's trying to make.

 

Couple things:

"Long guns, like AR 15s, can be sold at a flea market, gun show, or yard sale with no background check or record of transfer or sale."
Only when private individuals sell their own at gun shows. Most booths at shows selling guns are licensed dealers and the same rules apply - collect sales tax, verify purchaser, etc.

"Not at TSA check points, anywhere else at an airport, okay."
Nor PAST checkpoints. They aren't allowed in the secured areas where the gates and commercial stuff are (which is the majority area of sizeable commercial airports).

 

And as for side by side comparisons with other countries
It doesnt make sense to compare the US with countries like Honduras or Jamaica because their poverty rate is so much higher than ours.

Granted, the poverty rate in inner cities in the US is also quite high and I do think addressing wealth inequality in the US could go a long way towards addressing gun violence in inner cities. (Edit, I'm not sure ita accurate to say it's an inner city problem anymore actually as the recent trend has been towards gentrification in cities with the poor being pushed out of the cities..but same concept anyways)
Poverty correlates to a lot of social ills, including violence.

But that still doesnt really address the mass shooting problem in the US. Mass shooters are often from middle class or affluent families.
Meaning they would also have access to mental health care as well.

 

Playing ignorant is unbecoming. Leave that to the foolish.

It's an ongoing discussion that didn't begin with that post.

 

So basically you cant explain so you're going to be condescending in hope no one notices instead

 

Is this an exercise of "thinking out loud"?

Could you recompile per the ongoing discussion?

Thanks. Cheers.

 

Trying to be serious here. If you can't respect the process, I'll bow out.

 

It IS an exercise of thinking outloud actually, and trying to see the nuance and complexity of the issue.

 

You're trying to be serious and respecting the processs by repeatedly being condescending and telling me I shouldnt play dumb when asked to explain yourself in more depth?


I think I'll bow out actually, this is a really good example of how these conversations often become incredibly tedious

 

Trying to identify mass shooters by brain structure is about the dumbest idea I've ever heard. You can't just tell people, "Well, I took a look at your brain, and I'm afraid we have to lock you up."