Gun ban solution to mass murders?

I hadn't read that before I commented, obviously.
I struggle to believe that, to be honest.
Unless he sleeps on a trampoline and with one eye open.
I do think there is a psychological difference between having it locked away, and out in the open.
At the end of the day, he disagrees with your diagnosis of him and I accept what he is saying.

I should have gone back for clarity. Fair enough.

So what you ARE saying he is deluding/kidding himself?
So what you might be saying I'm deluding myself?
It isn't the end of the world if you say: 'Ok, fair enough, there are many who fit into my critique of a 'pro-gunner' - but I have to accept Siq isn't one of them' (perhaps say it through gritted teeth)

He already has answered you - several times.

True. I tried my best to give my reasoning. Take it or leave it.

 

Can't give you the name of the congressman that said it yesterday on one of the news channels. But this is the best I could come up with....

the principals/authors concluded (based on a telephone survey for a government agency) that only 25% of adults (35 +/- 1.3 percent of households) own guns,
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/numbers.html

Yeah, that's 5% more than what he said, but still a small percent. But it also said in that survey, that they really couldn't say for sure how many gun owners there are.

I also saw on the news, that 500,000 guns are stolen each year. Does anyone think that the gun thieves are anything but nut jobs?

Not even the majority of gun owners are nut jobs, most don't own assault weapons. But the nut jobs that are the problem, do have assault weapons.

Assault weapons and high capacity ammo clips ARE THE PROBLEM.
The advocates for those things (the NRA) are an extremist right wing group
with serious mental issues. They are paranoid of the government, yet they own the republican party. That's called being schizophrenic. And that's why the GOP will remain the minority party.

The more educated the south becomes, the smaller the GOP will get. And that's why the republicans want to destroy education. It's easier to herd sheep.

 

With that kinda logic, I agree it is an uphill struggle.
I can't remember reading about gang-banging, shooting the crap out of others (etc etc etc) being part of the 'black culture'.
To be fair, I imagine some of the people in need of change probably think it is to, or atleast their culture - that you tamper with at your peril.
I've been trying to think of an appropriate word for a person that does not listen to reason, always has an excuse, and point blank refuses to change either their lifestyle or their mind. They just prefer the status quo.

 

Why do you see assault weapons as the problem, and not the guns responsible for the VAST majority of firearm related death?

 

Living in rural Canada, I'd say at least 60% of the homes around here have guns. When I say guns I mean long guns or rifles. IMO hand guns are for two types of people; cops or criminals. The home I grew up in had over 12 rifles, my father was a hunter and belonged to a shooting club.

I am for controlled rifle ownership, I am against handguns and automatics.

As a matter of fact, guns are not BANNED in Canada...
As a matter of fact, The US Second Amendment was written almost a century before automatic weapons were invented and is irrelevant to modern day gun issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0gVbO3Illk"]US Gun Control and Gun Business - NRA is exposed -CBC The Fifth Estate - YouTube

 

OdonII

So you think he is lying?

And if he were sleeping with one eye open?

Your argument seemed to be that if he didn’t think he had immediate access to a gun (under pillow or in bedside cabinet) then it couldn’t be fear, but now we know that he does think he has immediate access to a gun (under 5 seconds I think we can call immediate).

To me there seems little psychological difference between having the gun there and knowing you can get it in under 5 seconds (and having check that you can).

As soon as be mentioned ‘just in case’ guns because he feared (is prepared for) attack he stepped into my theory and so far he has not stepped out of it.

I can only take what I’ve been given, all I’ve done is point out what I see as the flaws in your reasoning, if you are unable or unwilling to address those flaws that’s up to you but I would point that it means that my criticisms would stand.

Oh please read my posts – my point is that this fear/threat mentality is culturally ingrained in many Americans. They may not see it because it is so ingrained that for them it is not there. For example racism was once culturally ingrained. Once large parts of white society just knew that other races were inferior to them it wasn’t racism to them it was just how things were. They would even get upset, even insulted if they were called racist.

Someone might believe that having several ‘just in case’ guns because they feel they need to be prepared for an attack has nothing to do with any ‘fear’ of attack (and so supporting a threatening culture) but if that were true why even think in terms of ‘just in case’ and why go as far as having several ‘just in case’ guns.

[edit] I’d also add that you should also look at the other pro-gunner comments that fit in with my theory although they don't seem to realise it.

 

OdonII

Can you actually point out where?

I asked in post 122

Sig why do you have ‘just in case’ guns and what ‘cases’ are they for, you have said you worry about a messy revolution and some kind of catastrophic social decline, but why do you think there would be a revolution and what reason could there he for the social decline?

I’m a great fan of dystopian stories, but to me they are just stories, I don’t feel the need for a ‘just in case’ gun (let alone several) why do you?

[edit] My point is why have a ‘just in case’ gun why not have a society where you didn’t feel so frightened of the future that you felt you needed a just in case gun?
*
He said (post 59) that he has ‘just in case’ guns - In case the area I live it becomes not safe, revolution, and so on.

Oh he did qualify that by adding - I certainly don't fear a revolution. Nor do I fear my neighborhood becoming unsafe (lots of good, stable families moving in).

But then he qualified the qualification by adding - But, ya never know.
I’m seeking clarification and enlightenment – he cites social decline and revolution but what is the , and so on?

Why is it that while claiming that he thinks such things as are so incredibly unlikely and such remote possibilities, does he think in terms of ‘just in case’?

Another part of my theory is about the dislocation guns can cause so I’d like to see why he thinks there would be a revolution and what reason he could think of for there being social decline? He seems to feel he needs to be ‘prepared’ for them but why would they come about in his opinion, or does he not think about that or even care?

*

[edit] are you suggesting that just telling me I'm wrong is answering me?

 

That line of reasoning is dangerous. Bear in mind, the 1st Amendment was written well over a century before the invention of the technology we now call the internet, and over a century before television was invented. Are we to assume that an Americans free speech isn't applicable to content on the internet or television? What about telephones?

Statistically speaking they are not.

I am not a member of the NRA, nor am I a member of the GOP, yet I support the freedom of law abiding US citizens to own so-called "assault weapons" and high capacity magazines.

FYI, a magazine is what you insert into a firearm. A clip is what, typically, holds rounds prior to them being loaded into a magazine (see stripper clip). If you're going to label something as a problem at least know what it is.

 

The issue for many is thus: where does ghetto culture end and black culture being. If we are being honest with ourselves much of what people consider, for lack of a better way of putting it, "good" black culture was born out of ghetto experiences. As with anything, I suppose, there is an art in how far to take it.

 

I'd say it is an exaggeration.
If he wants to post a video of himself leaping out of bed and getting his gun in 5 seconds flat, I'd like to see it, and then pass it onto the Guinness Book of world records.

No. My 'argument' is that Siq said he wasn't fearful, and I believe him.
I don't think he has as immediate access to a gun as he suggests.
'Fear', as you know, is a very loaded term...what does it mean to you?
When does fear drop down to 'preparation' or even 'just in case'?
Why are you so passionate to turn 'just in case' into 'fear' (apart from an underling feeling I think you don't wish to be wrong)?

As I said, what is your definition of fear?
Do you think Siq's so-called fear has lead him to: '...a near paranoid outlook were everything and everyone is seen as a potential threat that is just waiting to attack or repress them.'?
...do you think he has an: ' irrational barrier between reality and myth'?
...do you think he is: 'ignoring socio-political problems'?
...do you think he thinks he is the: 'final arbiter, the one' that would defend American liberty, uphold the US constitution.'?
...and you are basing any assumptions of this based on 'just in case'?
Jee whiz, watch what you say everybody.

My assumptions are based on his tone and not wishing to attach my own prejudices onto another person unduly.
You say you are not talking about all 'pro-gunners' - but lets face it, you are.
Anybody that owns a gun, and has one in their home - for what ever reason - you have judged them, and condemned them to a very narrow characecture.
Even your use of the term 'pro-gunner' sounds rather derogatory.
Are you 'pro-gun' because you were around them and used guns in the past?
I do think aspects of what you have said about gun owners is correct, but I'm just not feelin' it here with Siq.
Like you say: 'of course not all Americans have this viewpoint'.

I think a fair criticism is the lack of equivalence of the outcomes.
I do think the same words can be used for both decisions.

I did read your post. You are saying that he might say he isn't fearful/living in fear - but he is, and he might not realise this himself, but it is true. So if that is not deluding/kidding himself - what is it?

As the cliché goes: It's a free country. (And, he can.)

Oh, right, you want some high level of naval gazing? Sorry.
I guess that's not been the case, no.

 

Just for clarification, my pistol safe is within arms reach of my bed. I don't have to leave my bed to access it.

 

What do you think was born out of the ghetto?

 

I thought as much, since you said it was behind your bed. You kinda have to watch what you say or the vultures come lookin'

 

Much of the music many associate with black culture comes out of the ghetto. Hip hop, for example.

 

Apparently so.

 

I know there is a rap tune called 'Fuck the Police' - but I don't think you are supposed to base your life around that. And doesn't the person who wrote that tune play a police officer on TV now? Yeah, there are many 'call to arms' etc rap tunes, but it's a big leap to base a whole culture around that. There are also plenty of more positive rap tunes out there. I wasn't suggesting delete rap from the equation - listening, creating rap could bring people together.

 

I agree. I was simply pointing out where one of the grey areas can be.

 

I understand. I think the areas to focus on is: Not killing people for being on the wrong side of town/street etc. Not carrying a gun around to kill people. And not killing people because they look at you funny.

 

OdonII

Fine, you believe him, but I’d say that someone that has several ‘just in case’ guns and has one in a safe by the side of his bed that he knows he can open in under 5 seconds would seem to indicate differently

But fine you believe him

And by the way I have this bridge in Brooklyn I’m trying to sell…

Why would someone be so prepared for something they didn’t fear? I am not prepared for a volcanic eruption, because living in London means I don’t worry about one killing me or my family, thing is that there are people in Naples that are not prepared for a volcanic eruption and they have a lot more reason to fear one happening.

(And to repeat I don’t think that people fear or are even that worried about getting a flat tyre).

This person has several guns as preparation against social disorder or outright revolution.

And I’ll ask again – Sig what do you think could bring about social disorder or outright revolution?

 

OdonII

Oh please read posts rather than going off half cocked…(ah a good gun expression)
As I’ve indicated I’m not sure what Sigs views are because he seems reluctant to talk to me or answer my questions

In fact you seem determined to talk for him.

I prefer to go on what people say rather than assumptions, maybe you have to rely on assumptions about his views because we have so little to go on.

Can you back that up or is it another assumption?

Again please read posts rather than make assumption.

Why?

Again please read posts rather than make assumption, I’m not pro-gun or anti-gun (i do not promote guns but I'm not necessarily against the law abiding andresponsible owning them) but what I’m asking is why have a gun what reasons do people have for wanting a gun. I could have a gun, but as I’ve said why would I want one –

Thing is that it is possible to get a gun in the UK, many people have shot guns and if you are law abiding and seem responsible it is possible to get a license. It is just that most people don’t feel the necessity to have a gun. I mean what would I do with a gun in the city? Hunting, I’d rather preserve the wildlife we have, rather than shoot it. Keeping down vermin, I think calling a professional exterminator would be more efficient and less time consuming than sitting out on my porch in the hope a rat will show up (say nothing from the flak from my neighbours). As to home defence, well, as I’ve said there just doesn’t seem to be the US pro-gunner’s level of fear about that here.(post 107)

Fine you make your assumptions, but can Sig talk for himself?

No and I’ve also said not all pro-gunners have this viewpoint.

So is Sig willing to debate his views or are you going to assume things on his behalf?