Great theological debate

Okiefreak · Jul 6, 2010

Okiefreak said:

By saying that liberals and progressives have "functioned' without the metaphysics, what do you mean? People have gotten by for millenia with all sorts of beliefs--if by that, you mean they can go about their daily lives, are productive citizens, pay their taxes, and enjoy fun times. Can they get by without any metaphyisics? That's debatable. My experience is that those who claim to do so, often have an unacknowledged belief system based on naturalism, science and humanism; or else are hedonists. I don't think people can function well without a sense of higher meaninng beyond the day-to-day ratrace--at least I couldn't. Could a person be progressive without having some basis for believing social justice is important? I doubt it. Does that basis have to be Christianity or some other religion? I don't think so.

Metaphysics, by definition, is an interpretation of facts that goes beyond refutable propostions. For example, is the apparent "fine tuning" of the universe better explained by intelligent design or blind events in parallel universes? At present, we can't say for sure, and I doubt we'll ever be able to say for sure in my lifetime. We can use reasonable rules of thumb, like Occam's razor, but it comes down to an educated bet, involving an interplay among reason, personal experience, intuition, cognitive patterns, and yes, needs and wants. The best we can do is keep an open, critical mind, but I'd say if it works for you, and is consistent with reason and evidence, it's the truth you're entitled to act upon.

I think that's true, but ideology gets into a whole other can of worms. think of ideology as an elaborate system of beliefs, values and doctrines, usually group shared. I'm generally leary of ideologies, and think they need to be kept on a short leash and critically evaluated. "I'm a Chrsitian, so I must believer x,y & z". I don't think so. Lots of ideologies are toxic, especially in the area of religion. To tell the good ones from the harmful ones, look at their effects on believers and the people around them.
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pineapple08 · Aug 11, 2010

No, Functioned with inherited metaphysics and categories. Ideas are funny things that evolve, reform and are reinterpreted over time under changing social conditions. One can only hint at the complex relationship between puritanism and liberalism for example or the relationship between secular humanism and the culture of the Greco-Roman world. The history of the latter is fascinating as is political science and philosophy. A rich cultural inheritance rooted in experience and practice.

So long as people posses the capacity for language and the social life that this implies they will have a talent for binding metaphysical beliefs of all kinds including what we may regard as absurd ones.

Yes a scientific way of of looking at things would imply extra special caution with regard to currently untestable propositions or hypothesis like parallel universes. There is also allot we do not know about yet, dark matter and energy fifth force etc. In any case good science will always open up new horizons pose new questions, and open up new way of thinking about the world rather than a program designed for producing comfort in closure or certainty.

Ideologies provide comfort and closure for many. heightened feelings of power in a crowd.

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Great theological debate

Okiefreak Senior Member

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Great theological debate

Okiefreak Senior Member

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