Graduated Minimum Wage?

I'm essentially saying that is is very easy to blame people on welfare. It's simple to say that they are lazy, criminals, etc. That is very one dimensional thinking. The story is much bigger than that.

You might be able to go to school, but can you afford it? Can you get transportation to and from school? Do you have a family, are you supporting children on your own? Do you even know how to access government help? Do you work two jobs and need to take two buses and a train to get from school to home?

What about the people who never had access to a quality public education, who never learned to read properly? The children who had to raise their younger siblings while their parents were out working? The kids who went to school and struggled with undiagnosed disabilities? The kid who got neglected and abused who came home and never had to live in fear of their lives rather than focus on schoolwork?

How about the children who got involved with a bad crowd early and have been told they were failures since a young age? Kids who think they are stupid or unworthy? A mother who fears to leave her abusive husband and to forge her own path in the world? Teenagers in the foster care system who have no support or guidance on how to get an education.

The list goes on and on. While many of these people can "technically" get into college, that doesn't prevent the overwhelming odds that they won't be able to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps. In reality, most of the poor won't move their way up in the world. Especially those raised in extreme poverty.

Growing up in poverty, I know what a struggle it is. I am an exception to the rules. I see many of my friends falling victim to a vicious cycle of poverty and lack of education. They aren't stupid, lazy, or underachievers. They simply lacked something that I had in my life. I may have had advantages that they didn't. I'm sick of people who have no idea what it is like dismissing these people and telling them to fend for themselves. It just isn't that easy. If it were, people would do it.

Trust me, living on foodstamps and welfare isn't a cakewalk. It fucking sucks. If someone is cheating the system that is a separate problem that needs to be dealt with.

 

Wow.... I think you covered every excuse and passed the blame too, In one post.

Excuses are like assholes and I think you just fingered them all. I am an American, Not an Americant. Its their fault for lack of education, Its free through HS unless you cant ask and follow instruction.

But I guess some have the drive to excel in life and others will sit and list ALL the excuses and the people to blame it on. Good luck with that

 

I was making $0.75 an hour most of the year in 1964, joined the military in 1965 greatly increasing my income, back to the private sector in 1969 with a pay cut, and worked my way up from then until retiring. Most often I noticed that each time I received a raise, the cost of living increased about the same or slightly more.

Actually the silver content of those 5 quarters at todays price would be worth $22.64 discarding the value of the copper, but still worth much more than the $1.25 value they represent.

If China gets their way perhaps we'll see the petrodollar replaced by the petroYuan?

The government mandated minimum wage will become more acceptable once the dollar devalues sufficiently to make it acceptable. Of course the consequence, or side effect if you prefer, will be an even greater wealth disparity between the rich and the poor.

 

yogi

This is the perpetuation of a myth, the idea that those that seek assistance are always doing it because they are lazy scroungers.

It’s a centuries old self-serving con game of the ‘deserving and undeserving poor’ used mainly by wealthy elites in many countries.

In it the deserving are those that don’t ask for help and so don’t need any. And the undeserving are those who do ask for help thereby showing that they are scroungers and wasters who don’t deserve any help.

So it is plain - the argument went – that there was no need to give assistance to the disadvantaged.

The problem was that these people were often the same people but just at different stages of life or circumstance. The most hardworking and responsible could through no fault of their own fall into hardship.

It the same argument put forward by many right winger today that if people are hard working and responsible they will not need assistance but if they do seek it they must be lazy and irresponsible proving they don’t deserve it”

 

Indie

What was this a reply to?

Are you taking evasion into the realms of the surreal? Can you please try and explain within the context of the thread what the hell you are going on about?

 

So. In The Bronx, NY. They were going to develop the Kingsbridge Armory for retail development. The development agreement stipulated a Living wage clause; so The Developer just pulled out, abandoned the project.
Now somebody else is trying to develop an ice skating rink there. But why would the developer pull out, its only three bucks more per hour? Did that break the bank?

 

mr. cozmo, what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

A 10 or 12 hour work day for some jobs would result in an adequate income.

 

You might say that we always had a graduated minimum wage until government decided to mandate a fixed minimum below which employers could not pay.

 

Indie

Well prior to 1938 you could say that there was a system that usually favoured the employer rather than the employee; it was a system that often saw exploitation (not just low wages but unhealthy or unsafe working conditions, the employment of children etc).

Oh and of course there was also slavery up till the 1860’s the ultimate in wage exploitation.

Thing is that there is not an equality of power and freedom between employer and employee. The gap is closer in societies with near full employment but becomes wider with high unemployment.

When the US was doing well economically was in the period from the end of WWII to the rise of neoliberal ideas. During that period the top tax rate was much higher (94% in 1945) and the national debt was reduced from the war time high of 117% of GDP to a reasonable 32.5% in 81.

But in the thirty odd years of free market/neoliberal ideas there was a huge increase in the wealth of a few while the real term incomes of those below have either stagnated or fallen. While the policies pursued have also caused a ballooning of the national debt and brought about a social and political system where wealth has gained great power and influence.

The problem I see with right wing libertarian ideas (like yours) is that it would most likely increase the power and influence of wealth while making life worse for most people in society through the implementation of even greater neoliberal policies.

 

Do you ever get tired of typing the same thing over and over in every thread?

 

I noticed that, too. I think "he" might be a bot. I never really hear actual people with real opinions talking like that. Sounds like he's always reading from the same tired script.

Zzzz....

 

I only repeat because people like you and indie make the same silly statements over and over the same statements they often could defend from criticism the million times they have said them before – you keep repeating I’ll keep repeating, and I’ll repeat this – why do you and indie hold onto ideas and views you can’t defend from criticism in anything like a rational or reasonable way?

 

If we're being Pete and Repeat, I'll say again that my (our) views can and have been defended in very logical and rational ways. The problem here is that rationality an be relative. So to anyone with a different rationale our beliefs will seam illogical. Just as I and many others see the views of the far left as irresponsible, illogical, and irrational. You can defend those ideas till the cows come home and in the most poised manner you could muster, and it will still seem ilogical to me and my ilk. It works both ways.

But instead if agreeing to disagree Some of us decide to repeat the same old discussion over and over hoping for a different result. That is why you see what you call evasion on these boards. I have very little interest in having the same pointless discussion time and time again knowing that the outcome will be the exact same thing every time.

There comes a point when this never ending ping long battle of personal beliefs needs to be abondoned. When respecting others beliefs and moving forward is a lot more effective. There are compromises and middle grounds that can be achieved, but while we are all bickering at eachother because we have different points of view we continue to be suspended in limbo with nothing being achieved.

 

It's a great idea - totally should be done

 

What?

 

Letlovin

AND YOU REPEAT AGAIN – forcing me to repeat again and ask once again as I have a thousand times before – WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE that you have defended in any rational and reasonable way your ideas?

To me the problem is that no one seems able to present such evidence.

Hogwash this is a hilarious level of evasion - ideas stand up to scrutiny or don’t. It not my fault that you are unable to defend your ideas from criticism.

This is fundamentalist thinking, 'it may seem illogical to you to think the world was literally created in six days by some sky god but to me that's just how it was'.

Again this is a repeat – so I again I have to repeat myself - you and others have not put up any logical or rational arguments – I’ve been told I’m wrong - I’ve been accused of being ‘emotional’ ‘biased’ and an ‘idiot’- I’ve been told I’m a pinko dreamer or evil socialist - BUT there is a lack of rational and reasonable argument and when asked none of you seem able to produce any.

What – LOL – again you sound exactly like a religious fundamentalist, like a creationist who dismisses all that geology or evolutionary stuff and instead unquestionably follows their doctrine.

Again a repeat - forcing me to ask once again - why would anyone agree with anything that is so seemingly flawed that it cannot be defended in any rational or reasonable way by the very people presenting it?

What – do you think we should just accept unquestionably the guff you pump out - that you can’t even defend from criticism?

Why not look at the ideas and ask yourself why can’t you defend it?

Then stop posting stuff that you can’t defend. If you post flawed ideas I’m going to point out just how flawed they are.

If the flaws are not addressed they remain and if you repeat the flawed arguments and I see it I have to out once again that they are flawed.

LOL – basically you want me to stop pointing out how flawed and silly your ideas are. Why should i?

Again why should anyone respect ideas that seem to be so flawed that they can’t even be defend by the posters?

 

Letlovin

Here is something I’ve posted before -

You have a headache and someone (mister X) says they can cure it.

Mister X takes you to a lion’s cage and tells you to place your head in the lion’s mouth

You ask if they can give a rational and reasonable argument for doing it and they reply that they don’t need to because it’s obviously a good idea.

You say that given the nature of the animal, it being a large meat eater and that by the way it seems to be very hungry that you think the most likely outcome of putting your head in its mouth is that it would bit it off.

Mister X says that your ideas are just based on your anti-lion prejudices and tells you that you are an idiot for not following their advice.

Now do you put your head in the lion’s mouth?

How about you compromise – you don’t put your head in but instead put your hand in the lions mouth and see what happens?

To me a bad idea is a bad idea.

And if even the supporters of an idea cannot defend it from criticism then it is likely a bad idea

 

Bal,

How about we talk about minimum wage?

 

letlovin


Go ahead you were the one to bring up the whole repeating thing up and now you seem to be failing to address what it brought up.


Its just more evasion.