GOD & PROOF

you got me there, but then one could easily say "well where did those come from etc" and it is never ending. I am perfectly at peace not knowing how the universe started. And if it ended tomorrow, I am sure I wouldn't feel much in the way of pain...

Personally, I don't think there is a hell, or if there is, it is for those who "know what they do" as Jesus sort of identified on the cross when he asked God to forgive his persecutors. I don't know if there is an early sect that thought this way, but if here is, I'd like to read about it. I also don't think the actions atributed to God in the Old Testament are God's actions. God seems so much more unactive on earth in the New Testamnet in comparison.

 

Where's The Beef, People??

 

Unfortunately, Libertine's ego didn't say that, did it?

I did. And I'm not in this for the ego.

You're still just wasting time cricketing, stop using Libertine as your object and start talking fact.

Now, here's the problem. I have been all but cast out via pitch-fork from my Christian family and church, because I question God. The Christians that I know curse my name behind my back for not being Christian; and I've even overheard my dad doing just that! (Did I mention I hate his Christian guts?)

In the past, Christians got away with bloody murder. With the Crusades. Now, sense has grasped society a little stronger, and murder just isn't allowed. Still, Christians LOVE tormenting heathens, making fun of them, talking shit about them, when they don't know the other guy's story, and haven't gotten in his shoes to see things from his perspective.

Every Christian I know is the same way. With two exceptions, Jatom from the Hip Forums (who I respect, as a Christian), and a friend from work's brother, whom I also had a debate with.

So you tell me, Erasmus ...

When all of the dumb Christians (and that is, tens) are compared in a ratio to the two Christians that have shown me they are worth their salt ...

You get, what I call, "many Christians." So I am obviously not mistaken in my approximation.

Both could possibly be true, yes. However, there is only proof enough for one. (The latter.) And it seems to me like belief in the other is widely unfounded.

Is that to say that others who disbelieve in God do not experience those tremendous senses? I don't think that's what you intend to say, but that's what I'm gathering from it, so do correct me.

That doesn't seem to be true at all. Belief in God makes you weak. It means, you don't really have to take responsibility for becoming a better person, you can just be, and just live, and let that be that. You don't have to worry about being bad, if you're bad, you can just pray and it'll all go away.

Any ability people have to worry less is only brought about out of belief. That is not a strength, it is a weakness. It means they are unable to actually work out the statistics and probabilities, and boil things down from what they seem to what they probably are. Instead, they just, stop worrying, because they "know that everything will turn out okay."

But we worry for a reason ... non-worrying is a weakness. A useful weakness maybe, but anyone can cease to worry if they REALLY want to. And usually, evaluating out a situation using your mind will set it at ease, because you'll figure the situation out, and not worry about it.

That's how I stop worrying anyway.

Sure, but would you call someone like that human? People are still people, whether a God exists in actuality or not. People still have emotions, and people still care, and worry.

But people who use their brains, and know that some situations are out of their control, and who can use their brains to plan ahead and facilitate the situation, rather than who sit back and pray and say "God will do it," those are the people that actually stand a higher chance at turning good out of the situation.

As an agnostic, I can tell you that accountability is definitely important, so don't quite go putting words in our mouths just yet.

Why do you think agnostics don't care about consequences? If I didn't care about consequences or accountability, I wouldn't be the highly-upstainding moral citizen that I am today. Despite argumentative.

What, then, would be more accurate?

It's not made up. I know a lot of people, like Libertine, and in many ways like myself, except generally less argumentative. These people, like I, know more things about the Bible than any Christian I have ever met. And that is the reason they don't believe.

How can you challenge the Bible when you haven't read most of the Bible, and the only Bible you've read from, the King James version, is the most inaccurate copy known! Those who HAVE read it, have statistically calculated that 87% of the statements in that book are DEVIOUS FROM THEIR ORIGINAL MEANING.

I say this because I know. The father of the other Christian whom I have great respect for, is a missionary, who TELLS PEOPLE how wrong the King James version is, and, as a living, provides accurate copies of the original texts, translated into different languages by a specific team of knowledgable translators!

And yet, every other Christian I know, can't even start talking to me about the Dead Sea Scrolls (a historically significant aspect of the King James Bible's origin) or about most deep topics found within the Bible.

Every other Christian I know, is blatantly unaware of the rampant contradictions of the Bible, because they haven't read them!

Heck, you can go online to http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html and see the contradictions for yourself!

But Christians know nothing of these contradictions, they haven't read far enough to even know there are contradictions, they simply believe there are none because their pastor says there are none.

I didn't say internal. I was mainly referring to external regardless. Because Christians can apply their belief in God to external struggle, and stop worrying. Others can do the same, but without the belief in God, it just means they have to try hard and think hard, instead of believe, that's all.

I was naive, I used to be one of them, years ago.

And just talking with my parents, talking with my grandparents, talking with other Christian families ... it's obvious that they know nothing about their own Holy Book.

Even my own pastor has completely failed to acknowledge the contradictions in the Bible, and when I confronted him, was UNABLE to answer my questions, and went off on a rank about having faith ...

Where is it weak? I'm a computer programmer. My logic and reasoning skills must be literally perfect in order to produce programs that work. One misplaced semicolon here and there ... failing to cross my t's and dot my i's, will result in catastrophic failure of the program.

So, where is it weak?

Here's the problem. My understanding of what they believe, COMES from what they have said they believe! If my understanding is weak, THEIR understanding is even weaker, and THAT is why I call it pathetic!

He likes to dodge the bullet like that, doesn't he? He doesn't realize, he's the one being ignorant of your questions.

Burbot, as one of the other Christians I haven't lost respect for, have you read any of the other gospels not in the Bible? There were 106 of them, most of them outlining how Jesus was a human, and not sent by God, and had a wife and child ... which the Bible would have strictly forbade.

I'm curious as to what your thoughts are regarding those gospels.

And ... is that a statement that you don't believe in the Bible? Not to pick on you, Burbot, just making sure you aren't contradicting yourself ...

Lib, you've taken it, and ran away.

 

When I was 16 my parents knew nothing. It's amazing how much they learned in the next 5 years.

 

Libertine is pretty durable.
I think I can keep sorting out facts, sure..

This is very bizarre. It seems to me you must have been raised in a 'Charismatic' org and not just any one either - some sort of extreme swing away from anything we could call 'typical' Christianity.
Something we would probably call a 'Cult'.
Im sorry to hear about this.

A comment so misinformed and illogical its hard to know where to start.
Crusades were mainly dedicated to warring or overtaking other Christians.
In the case of warring against the Saracin - the Crusaders sure as heck did not 'get away' with anything but some brutal returns.

Not that any war is is good - but the Crusades are pretty small potatoes compared to just about any number of wars going on throughout history and all over the planet.

It would actually make 'more sense' for you to say "Look at the Asians who having been getting away with bloody murder. With Genghis Khan.

The fact that last statement was wacked just shows how much more wacked yours was.

Id like to strongly disagree with your notion that Society has 'grasped' some better opposition to murder than it has had before but thats another topic I suppose.
(see: Murder rates increasing very sharply since approx 1970 till today.)
Anyways..
You seem to think Murder was 'allowed' - Insane
The next claim you make is remarkable in that it requires quotes around every word in the sentence... this is some sort of Hipforums first!

'Christians' 'LOVE' 'tormenting' 'Heathens'?

Wow.

- They are not doing so as 'Christians' and in fact would be doing so in SPITE of their Christianity.
- They would not LOVE it (see: Above)
- Tormenting eh?
- Who uses the word 'Heathens' anymore lol?

Jatom is the shizit.
Agreed.
Dont know your friends brother. Sure he is a cool dude.

This is not in reference to what Christians 'you think' are 'worth their salt' but a claim you made (and based a lot of conjecture upon) that read like this:

I have emboldened the problem statements.
The problem I have is that they describe behavior and attitudes which are entirely inconsistent with Christianity (cover almost all the spectrum of denoms and liberalism too).
I agree that someone 'Could' be doing that, however that they were doing this in the first place would immediately identify them as someone who does not understand the faith.
In that sense they are not really Christians in that they are not practicing or understanding what they claim to be accepting in name.

I seriously doubt you run into many Christians who actually tell you they believe they can hurt people then have no reason to stop, regret or change but have a 'free pass' to hurt people.
Seriously.. get real here.

Do you mean agony, inner-conflicts, emotional pain etc?
Yes, those who believe in a Godless Universe can definately experience that.
They may not have a 600 pound Gorilla standing in front of them called a 'Spiritual Dilema' but they can have all those things too.
[/QUOTE]

I think I understand where you are confused.
You are thinking of 'Atheism' or a sort of Spirituality in which there is no personal responsibility and accountability?

At any rate, you are insane if you think you are describing Christianity because you are definately not even close.

Again... If there IS someone who is under the impression that they are forgiven for the sake of it.. someone who is actually sincerely praying to be forgiven for a wrongdoing...errrr... but according to you is (somehow?) at the same time NOT interested in repentence and does intend to do it again ...
WTF?
Do you see what Im saying here - this doesnt even 'make sense' and a person would have to be mentally ill and/or have no comprehension of what they (insanely) think they have accepted in Christ forgiveness.

I strongly doubt you know many people like this.
Then again it appears you are familiar with some cultic 'holy roller' wacko Church so maybe that is what you know.
Thats very very sad if true.
Do you live in a secluded rural area cut off from the 'outside'?

There is something to what you are saying.
'Worry' is considered an unhelpful and illogical condition according to Jesus.
Most psychiatrists agree.
Actually it is THE primary and fundamental condition in humans in which all sorts of horrors and illness (mental AND physical) are based on.

In a situation with the Apostles where they were becoming worried and anxious about possible upcoming problems he asks them a simple question (and let me say the text does not say they were balding men but anyways..)
He says 'Hey.. can you worry hard enough about your hair so that eventually you can make one single hair grow?'
Of course.. the answer is No.
So then.. Jesus asks rhetorically asks "Since you cant even do that by the power of worry - how do you intend to use it to change the BIG things in life!?"

This doesnt really fit with your statement but thats because you were really just rambling or something about being 'strong' because you DO worry AND calculate probability?
Huh?

Ive gotta be frank with you - I dont think you really know what your trying to say so I wont get into it until you do.

Yes I agree.
Its often called 'The Human Condition' in that we are emotional beings with a natural.. almost irresistable draw to worry.

It seems to me you are agreeing with Jesus position on worry but for some reason you just modify it by adding this 'God will do it" line.
Im still pretty sure you dont know where you want to go with this so I will leave it at that.

I dont really see why it should be?
Quite honestly, if you could get away with something then why not?
You dont really answer to anyone in any real personal sense of anything?

Its hard to say with you because I dont know if you are a sincere agnostic (meaning you dont know one way or the other yet) because you seem to be arguing for a Godless Universe.
OR
You seem to have made up your mind to put faith in an impersonal 'god' in which there is no real answering to.

Maybe you can clarify what you put faith in?

Why you dont think Christians care about consequences?

The fact is that a 'hard atheist' has every reason to think about consequences - his.
If you can get away with a million dollars and not get caught - you absolutely SHOULD do that and there is no such thing as 'regret' (unless you get caught I guess hehe).
Heck.. if Greed gets you pleasures then Greed IS good.
If smiles gets you what you want then fake them... of course you should.
Nothing matter because you are just an organism that will cease asap and so will the other organisms.

But for sure - if being an upstanding citizen gets your gears going - then do that too.
It has benefits.
But dont say 'moral' because that is not real to you.
There is no such thing as 'morales' - you just do what gives benefits and makes you feel the best.
Right?

This is refering to me pointing out your analysis of Christianity is innaccurate.
A more accurate description was given in part throughout both of these posts between us.
More accurate would be someone understanding there are both spiritual and physical consequences for wrongdoing.
Acknowledging 'Right' vs 'Wrong' would obviously need to be there to get that far obviously.
Then someone who is seeking forgiveness with sincerity is (part and parcel) understanding that this is NOT acceptable or desireable in the first place.
Someone who does comprehend they have forgiveness for their sins IN ORDER THAT they may be free to go forward and 'sin no more' and be FREED to do good (because its good).

Even if that is not the most articulate description of what a practicing Christian would be aiming for - its definately well into your requirements for a 'More Accurate' description.

We agreed not to bring Libertine into this - who is busy working on a show and the more I think about it - I actually DO hope he DOES become the 'AntiChris' to the point I will actually start praying for it.

Having said that - No, you do not know more about the Bible than any Christian you have met.
I actually do agree there are farrrrr too many unequipped Christians out there but they dont compare to the percentage of Critics who claim to have some superior Bible knowledge but in fact just have a cutnpaste list of fourth hand shitty 'catchphrases' and a wealth of 'bad knowledge'.

But you definatley do not have a clue what your talking about sorry to say.

Its all starting to make more sense now.
King James Only - Using the word 'Heathen' - Murder.... You are from a family of actual Fundamentalists!
(Not to be confused by the popular internet use of the word 'fundamentalism')

The King James version is nice but since I dont speak Olde English I stick with my NIV.
However your bizarre assertion that "'87% of the statements in that book are DEVIOUS FROM THEIR ORIGINAL MEANING" is total nonsense and sounds like a If you even thought about it for longer than 10 seconds you would realise that doesnt even make sense in any realistic way.

Im not sure what edition of the King James Bible he is talking about but none of that makes sense.
The King James is just an english translation of Greek and Latin and Aramaic texts (sorry dont recall which was for what edition etc on that).
Im not even sure if you know what he means when he tells you this.
You dont know what your trying to say that he said.

Sounds like you are hangin out with kooks and fundamentalists (real ones) or possibly because you believed some errors and when you try and share them the others 'cant even start talking' because what you are saying doesnt make sense anyways.

No, I am a Christian so I have to see and hear these 'contradiction' frauds all the time.
I think Ive read everyone of them about 10 times now.
So far I have not seen ANY contradictions although there are two typos that I can tell - which say alot to the credibility of the scriptures but that will go way over your head right now...

Most of these you see at Skeptics are actually tricks on you that make it 'appear' like you 'felt like' you saw somethign 'contradictory'.
It fools dim-witted people who believe anything they are told to believe.
You should be better than that.

Again, Im beyond convinced you dont know exactly what you are trying to 'get at' with this.
I think it would be great for anyone to stop worrying and in neither case is anyone prevented (actually they are free to) use cognitive thinking abilities to solve problems instead.
Im pretty sure this is only encouraged by New Testament doctrines.

I will suggest you still are.
Maybe more so.

They might be fundamentalists or else you are in error and cant understand why they are not agreeing with your crazy version of a Holy Book which is not real anyways.

Your own Pastor was smart enough to realise you did not provide any contradictions in the Bible so he did the only logical thing he can do - which is to not acknowledge that which is not there.
Maybe he WAS answering your questions but you just did not want or like the answers.

For someone with perfect logic and reasoning skills its a bit odd you would be asking me this in the middle of this.
What do you think we have been doing all along - discussing where weaknesses lie in your arguments.

Again, you are refering to seriously fucked up 'Christians' who are not even practicing Christianity in the first place.
Other than that its probably more of you own misunderstanding of what they believe.
Did they tell you they condone murder, believe they may sin willfully without regret or that Tormenting 'Heathens' is somethign they LOVE?
[/QUOTE]

Just to chip in on that one - they are not 'Gospels' in any proper sense of the word and even still only a handful use that term to describe themselves.

Also, did you mean to say most of them outlining how Jesus was a Phantom and not a human?
Because that is what Gnostics believed.

Your thinking of the Bible Gospel accounts which outline how Jesus was a Human and God at the same time.

He hasnt run away.
He is impressing some teenagers with some 'Illusionism'.
Sure to be right back anytime now.

 

Illusionism? How does stating mostly proven facts against completely false and absurd claims that there is someone that nobody can see, nobody has met, and has never left any evidence of his existence count as illusionism?

I'm sure when scientists prove that existence is all scientific some day, you will all probably lock yourselves in your homes. Embarrassment of being so stupid to believe there is a god for so many thousands of years.

What proven facts are there that god created everything? Now, look at all the proven facts that existence is scientifically based.

We win.

 

Yeah, looking back in hindsight, I probobly shouldn't have said many, cause most of the gnostic gospels deal either with his ministry (like Mark does) and very little with his death or resurrection. Or they deal with what took place after his death (I am reminded of Philip when Mary got the diciples together and they were arguing about what to do). I have read some, skimmed others (I found Nicodemus interesting, aminly cause the conversation that took place between hell and satan it was...different...)...
EDIT: OK, looking back, I think I meant the out of the ones included in the NT "many" proclaimed he was God (mark is the only one that doesn't really to as much of an extent of the other 3.). Yeah, I guess that was a bit misleading.

Well I also added an "if there is blah blah blah". The reason I wouldn't think there would be a hell is along the lines of "would a loving and forgiving god condemn people for eternity?". I don't think so, and if one should, it would be for those who truly deserve it. I don't believe in the literal history of the Old Testamnet, no. So I guess if you wanted to you could say I don't believe in the Bible, but I do have faith in Jesus as God according to the New Testament. It is sort of weird, and not very logical, but it works for me...

I was reading around about eastern orthodoxy, and came across this explanation as to why the circa 4th Century councils are regarded as viable. They believe that they were under the influence of the Holy Sprit, mind you to believe that you also must believe in the Holy Spirit. Another problem is that basically that can be used as an excuse for anything, like Pat Robertson saying dumb things "oh, but that was the holy spirit moving him to say that" so that argument does have it's limitations.

 

Facts aren't proven, they are supported just so you know

 

Wow. I am now Erasmus' durable object?

 

Is it the making of a new porn

 

Let's hope not.

I'm all for porn, but for the sake of mercy...please...

 

Oh but it's not just my church. The church of my friend, which I went to, was even more dogmatic and cultish than mine own. And the church of my other friend.

Relatively all churches, at least in America, have become this way. There is no such thing as "typical" Christianity anymore.

So millions of deaths on both sides is "a small potato" to you?

So the Crusades were not akin to Genghis Khan? Genghis Khan was murder, but the Crusades weren't? Millions of Asian deaths is more important than millions of European and Middle-Eastern deaths?

This is true. However, the population of the world has also increased, and I have reason to believe that the murder rates have only increased, at the most, proportionally to the number of people living in it.

That's kind of my point, really.

Someone called me a heathen on this board a few weeks ago. And by someone, I mean, a Christian.

Yeah, he really is. I wish he was in the poll for Christian of the Year, he'd have had my vote. Unfortunately he hasn't been around lately ... =(

Granted, but then how can you explain the MASS of Christians living in this world, that really aren't Christian?

So Christians, today, aren't really Christians, and I have only ever met two (well, three, if you count yourself) true Christians?

And the rest don't understand their faith?

Hmm, now ... isn't that ... really, just ... kind of, my point?

You know, it's happened, and that's a fact I consider very scary.

You know, MY PASTOR, and MY FRIEND'S PASTOR have actually told me that, if you believe, and pray, and ask for forgiveness, you WILL be forgiven, no matter what you have done, and that even if I have made it a point in my life to NOT sin, to refine myself as purely as possible, if I don't have faith, I will automatically go to Hell.

Is that the kind of God that, YOU, Erasmus, worship?

That is the kind of God that I, Hikaru, would rather fight against, if he casts you aside for not believing in something that cannot be proven, when the book he tells you to believe in says "prove all things."

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." - 1 Theologians 5:21

That's just my point. These pastors, my parents, most of these people ... ARE mentally ill. They DON'T understand their faith.

Not really. My pastor belongs to a congregation of many, just like all pastors do. And those congregations have ties to other congregations. I'm sure that my pastor and my friend's pastor would have both been kicked out if the other pastors disagreed with their ideas.

And I do live out in the sticks, but my church is a lot closer to town, and I have been to highly distrubed churches inside the city limits.

I agree.

I worry less today about being cast into Hell for my sins, because I don't believe in it anymore. I've used probability and logic to cast that option out of my mind, and now my focus is on continually erasing all sin and tendency to sin from my self, rather than worrying about if I am going to heaven or Hell.

Why should accountability be important? Society will crumble if it is not important.

If I could get away with something, why not? Because I would know what I did, and I am answerable to myself.

I have a need, whether its an ego-trip or not, a need to be non-hypocritical, which stems from the observed hypocracy of the church and my family over the years.

If I find something in myself that is hypocritical or contradictory, then I am not happy until I have laid it to rest within myself, and found peace.

Unfortunately, most Christians I know say "humans aren't perfect" and simply pray for God to forgive their sins, and then make no effort (even though they say they do) to actually sin any less.

I argue only that we have no proof, and that because of that, even according to the Bible (which tells you to prove all things), we shouldn't believe in that which cannot be proven, because such belief is logically unfounded.

Thus, I am against the belief in God (because there is no proof), and also against the disbelief in God (because there is no proof agianst).

In a sense, I'm a logical positivist. Talking about God is kind of like talking about unicorns, or about the square root of negative 1 (known as imaginary numbers). You can talk about it, but there is no point, because it cannot be applied to the real world in any way. Thus, it's somewhat nonsensical.

Any atheist with a sociobiological stance on morality would argue otherwise. (Sociobiological morality stance = morality is inherent because cooperation is a better strategy for survival than competition)

The fact is, all beings have a moral/ethical code of some sort. Some people lack conviction to those ethics, but the problem is, the ratios of good atheists to bad atheists and the ratios of good theists to bad theists is, I bet, approximately the same.

Not really. Morals exist for all people, they just are not universal. All beings have a concept in their mind of how things SHOULD be, and have an underlying drive (whether strong or weak) that pushes them to make things how they feel they should be.

You just believe that morals are universal, defined by God. Atheists tend to think otherwise.

Now, here's MY problem, the question that my pastor could not answer.

Why, if I, say, follow all of the commandments but the first (to believe in God, since the Bible DOES say "prove all things" and God cannot be proven), why, if I am a good upstanding citizen that tries harder than most others who believe in God, am I (according to the Bible and my pastor) damned for all eternity to Hell?

I choose not to follow such a religion, because of the implications that, a good person, when judged as good, will still burn for eternity in Hell.

It really, really, seems that we're indirectly being told to burn forever in Hell. Prove all things, and hold fast that which is good, yet believe in something that cannot be proven.

Yeah, I don't mean to involve Libertine, I more intend to involve the others that fit similar descriptions. Let's use, instead, my friend, named Jon.

True. What I mean to say, I suppose, is than most Christians I have met.

I disagree. Most critics I have met are capable of confounding most Christians I have met, in a debate, by using quotations from the Bible itself.

Though, just as there are unequipped Christians, there are also unequipped atheists, that I won't argue against.

Actually, my family claims that fundamentalism, especially Catholicism, is the wrong path, and is not following in the path of Jesus.

That's the funny part.

No, no, that is not an assertion.

That is a direct statistic, as calculated by that Christian father I told you of. I think his name was Chris.

Me -> My friend Sara -> her brother Chris -> their dad, missionary.

My friends' dad is a missionary, who can speak multiple languages, and leads a team of numerous scholars, that all speak multiple languages, and their goal, as missionaries, is to accurately and precisely translate the original text of the Bible into language in which it is not already available accurately.

They translated (as accurately as possible) the original texts into English, and then evaluated the clarity of the statements in the King James version of the Bible, and found that 87% of the statements in the King James version, did not match the correct meaning in the original texts.

This is not surprising, considering the knowledge levels of translators when the KJV was produced.

And this statistic, friend, is coming from an intelligent Christian missionary, not some atheist that is spouting off facts. That man (and his son, who I had a debate with and respect as a Christian) both hold the view that the KJV is the equivalent of a Google translation from Japanese. Some statements are going to portray their actual contexts and meanings, but most of them are going to have to be heavily modified in order to make sense out of them, and those modifications draw the reader away from the original meaning.

Considering we had a 4 hour discussion about this, I do definitely understand what he said. And, he said, 87% of the statements in the King James version of the Bible, do not accurately portray the meanings of the original texts.

This family is also not a fundamentalist family, the guy I talked to said they don't label themselves because everyone has different beliefs that can't be generalized. Which makes a lot of sense.

Well, let me point a few out, I want to see what you think of them:

"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." - Matthew 5:44

"Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison: Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth." - Psalm 83:9-10

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema." - 1 Corinthians 16:22

Anathema - # A formal ecclesiastical ban, curse, or excommunication.
# A vehement denunciation; a curse: “the sound of a witch's anathemas in some unknown tongue” (Nathaniel Hawthorne).
# One that is cursed or damned.

-----

"And the flood was forty days upon the earth." - Genesis 7:17

"And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days." - Genesis 7:24

"And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the one hundred and fifty days the waters were abated." - Genesis 8:3

-----

"Fury is not in me." - Isaiah 27:4, a quotation of God.

"And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath." - Jeremiah 21:5

"God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious." - Nahum 1:2

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"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." - Numbers 23:19

"It was impossible for God to lie." - Hebrews 6:18

"Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets." - 2 Chronicles 18:22

"And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." - Ezekiel 14:9

"O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived." - Jeremiah 20:7

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"And it was the third hour, and they crucified him." - Mark 15:25

"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified." - John 19:14-16

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Perhaps, Erasmus, you can explain these?

Yes, I know. I have read MOST of them, and they are taken out of context, and misrepresented. Even though I may be biased against the Bible, I do credit you that much. Many of those "contradictions," when I read them, I said "wait, that's stupid, that's not even a contradiction!"

However, there ARE some that are contradictions, which I provided above. I do try my best to look at things with an unbiased light, after all.

I never said perfect, so don't believe I did. I simply said, not weak.

Maybe because they weren't included in the Bible, they are not official Gospels, but they do work the same as the Gospels included in the Bible, in that they describe the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

Hey, where's the beef?

Anyone provided evidence, yet?

 

How about a billion people who support the idea, that has to count for something. It isn't proof, but it is a pretty large number of supporting voices.
I firmly believe you will not be presented with any conclusive evidence, sadly. Whether there is a God or not, the existence of proof is not likely. Of course it is much more unlikely if there isn't one.
If there is a God, this is like a game of hide and seek, with God doing the hiding and people doing the seeking. I know who I would bet on.

 

The majority of people once believed in a flat earth.

No, "majority rules" is hardly objective evidence of such a claim.

 

majority of people belive the sky is blue

 

mob rules is more like it. since my views are very much in the minority, i am with you there. still, had to take a shot. anybody else got any ideas?
there is no proof, 99.99% sure.

 

Oh, yeah...the majority of people believe that 2+2=4. The sky "appears" to be blue to most people.

Sometimes the majority of people are correct, Kris. However, the "majority" argument is not suitable criteria for objective truth.

 

I'd like to MEET your challenge. MY Objective GOD made it possible for me to catch THIS Sunrise. Please note the DATE stamp. Also, Please be aware that I am Non-Christian. The date caused me to think awhile, and Really know what that sunrise means to me. The promise of another tomorrow, a blessing for today and a reminder he/she is looking out for you.





Behold the proof.
(P.S. I live in a place named "SIN CITY"!)

 

Sorry. I didn't realize you can't read the date stamp. These were taken around 6:00 AM on December 25th in Las Vegas, Nevada. I am the photographer, and I retain the copyright to those pics.