GOD & PROOF

Dude..Lib...what about what I said? Comment?

 

"A belief in God would demand one hundred obsessive devotion, influencing every waking moment of this brief life on earth. But your four billion so-called believers do not live their lives in this fashion, except for a few. The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs – an earthly and practical utility – but they do not believe in the underlying reality." - Scott Adams, in "God's Debris"

 

In other words, most people believe in God, because it's comfortable. It makes the world less scary. We can sit there and think, "Things will be alright, God will help me through it." And we cheer up.

You could look at that as proof, I guess. It exists in the minds of many people, and that could be a form of existence. Though, it's still nothing tangible, or physical we can document.

I don't believe in a creator God because...the idea seems horribly ridiculous to me. Where did God come from? Who created God? Who created whoever created God? Did God always exist? And is the answer to that is "yes", than you're no better than we are for saying the Universe has always existed. Is it possible that the Universe and God are the same thing?

I personally believe in "something", but not a creator God. As I said before, I believe in Nature, and I believe that we all come from Nature and are therefore apart of it. I believe in something beyond the reality we know, something deeper.

I believe in the Buddhist belief of "an-atma" or "non-self." The belief that, rather than having souls or "spirits", we are made up of a never ending "flux", a higher conciousness. Rather than believeing that I must "obey" this higher being, or "Serve" it or "worship", I believe I just "am" it. Everyone is. It's nothing that you have to try to "please" or "be one with", you just always are, and it's a matter of realising it. You have infinite potential.

I'm a bit of an eccentric though, and my beliefs are kind of all over. I make my own reality, so to speak.

 

I dont agree with with this.
From a personal experience its definately not true for me but I also see the opposite being true for many who find themselves convinced God exists.

Now Im not saying that Christians 'should' be uncomfortable and often downright overwhelmed with difficult emotional dilemas either.
It does appear to be a part of the process and eventually their faith is perfected to a state of comfort and joy and provides that 'comfort'.

Im saying this without necessarily speaking to the issue of whether or not being comforted by faith in God argues for or against the existance of God either - just pointing out that Faith in God puts a lot of people into agonising emotional trials, uncomfortable 'soul searching' and states of tremendous emotional turmoil.
Welcome to humanity as they say.

I could also make an equal argument that nothing would be more comforting, relaxing, enjoyable (for some people) than to think 'There is no God or Eternity' and therefore release all sorts of concerns, difficult questions and go ahead to 'Eat, Drink and be Merry for tomorrow we may die' sort of Cheering up.
Again, not necessarily speaking to that as an argument for or against a Godless Universe either.

 

Molly, I was under the impression that I had already given my opinion of the "good" and "evil" argument and how that doesn't necessitate a supernatural (unproven) deity.

 

I'm sorry, could you repeat that? All I got from your post was:

*cricket, cricket, cricket cricket, cricket*

I think that many Christians delude themselves with thoughts of an all-powerful, all-benevolent God, because it makes them feel secure. It makes them feel like, if they've sinned, they can just pray and they'll be forgiven, they don't have to apologize to anyone they hurt, they don't even have to make a conscious effort to not do it again, they can just be sinful and pray, be sinful and pray ... be naive and pray ... wage bloody wars in the name of their One True God, and pray ...

Yes, that is a form of existance. But again, that's not God you're talking about, that's the God concept, that exists in the minds of believers.

Nobody expects you to agree, friend. =P

But even case studies have shown belief in action. If you believe something, you will be relieved, in essence. Just like if you find out your son went to a drinking party and is now on his way home, driving drunk, you won't worry as much if you pray to God for him AND believe wholeheartedly.

That being said, most Christians do not believe wholeheartedly, God is just the opiate of the masses. Most people who WOULD believe wholeheartedly have challenged the Bible and believe something else, because they realize it's just a facade.

Now see, this is what EVERYONE must go through, but patching God over it to make you feel better is just a naive way of disbelieving real statistics and situations. And it works, it works well even!

The problem is, if the situation is ever resolved, it's always attributed to God, and few things are learned. This may be a big reason why religious folk are so naive.

 

Read the quote I posted. Most Christians don't live their lives in the "manditory" Christian way. They don't follow the bible to the T, and they still sin daily, believing that if they just pray, things will be alright. They just SAY they believe, because it's easy to fall back on something like that, and feel like you have your bases covered.

 

Something I noticed, after I started to rely upon God to solve the things that are not necessary because God is taking care of me: things are taken care of. I don't worry about things.

These questions aren't logical from the standpoint:

That God existed prior to everything else. 1st cause.

No, not if God created the universe within God's mind (which is true).

Is it possible that hot pink glowing penguins exist?

God controls the whole universe, everything within it is within and part of God except souls (such as you and I) that exist as individuals within God.

 

That may be true as far as it goes but I think it's only one part of the story;

exp).If some idiot hitch-hiker finds himself standing on a hiway in Vale, in January, wearing a windbreaker and a sweater when it's -10 degrees with a 30mph wind, after not having eaten in three days, suddenly has a moment of clarity and starts praying;

"OK God, I get it. I'm an idiot. With a capital "I". I give up. How about giving me a break?"

You could say this guy's belief that someone's listening might make him feel better--and you'd be right--but 2 seconds later when he looks down at his feet and finds a $20 bill sticking out of the snow, at about the same moment that someone stops to give him a ride to the truckstop 30 mls away, you could understand why the "prayer=placebo" explanation would suddenly seem a bit inadequete (for him anyway. I would never expect anyone's personal anecdotes to convince someone else).

My point is you really can't speculate on why anyone else believes what they believe.

I think you can, however, whatch how they act and come to some kind of conclusion about whether or not they actually believe what they claim to believe.

 

God is dead, and we killed him... (some of you may understand)... for those that dont.

I belive there is a God, but, I belive no one has the foggiest conception of what that is.. one reason for this is that people have associated physical characteristics with god.. (i.e. God is a man, sits in the clowds, and has angles flying around him)... Well, does that mean that god is a "male", does he have a penis? I hope so, if he is a man...

The more you think about it from this perspective, you will see its very "child like" to say it nicely...

But think of it this way... perhaps god is mearly a lable, that is a label to define all the energy in this univerise.. no beginning, no end.. just everything and nothing... What is that energy? I belive it is us... we are all god... but like a child in a crib that cannot grasp the emence world that is acctually around them, most of us just don't know it yet... but one way mightl...

 

'My point is you really can't speculate on why anyone else believes what they believe.

I think you can, however, whatch how they act and come to some kind of conclusion about whether or not they actually believe what they claim to believe.'
naykidape
Well said. It is so common for us to claim to have an idea of why someone else has a certain belief. How impossible that is to know, since the only way to do so would be to experience every moment of their life from their point of view. Even if you were right there all along, you were not in the same spot, and saw a different view than theirs.
It is hard enough figuring out ones own reasons for our actions, and I feel few even try to.

 

Listen closer.. its the sound of Libertines ego bloat bloat bloat..

Total nonsense.
Well.. you might be giving me some exceptional example of a deluded soul who does not understand what Forgiveness entails and implies and means to them.
More likely explanation: You are giving your own MISunderstanding of Christianity in the form of a 'many Christians' as you mistakenly believe they must work.

Ok. Well you are entitled to your opinion.
Both can be true (a God that exists AND their concept that God exists) but nothing we are talking about would 'prove' anything on that yet.


Nobody expects you to agree, friend. =P

Thats fine but you are failing to take into account what the Christian is really believing in here.
For the 'many Christians' you are refering to - (sticking with your analogy) they might experience tremendous sense of accountability, responsibilty, preparation for trials and discipline (again.. in THEIR minds they believe these things) and a whole boatload of other difficult, 'worrisome' and often downright conflicting emotions.
For many their belief in a God is creating a internal war or conflict between what we used to call 'Dual Natures' or their aspirations vs their lusts etc.

I honestly do not know of a Christian (who has even the most basic understanding) who does not only experience all of those difficult internal struggles - but some have been in long soul transforming knock-down, drag-out emotional upheavals that have been the 'psychological' equivalent of training for a heavyweight championship or to learn to walk again.

So this is a case where you can argue that their belief in God has 'ultimately' made them stronger and more able to arrive at a point where they cope better emotionally, psychologically with life.
Ok, yes that seems to be true.
However....
It would seem to me it would be a heck of a lot easier and more convenient (more welcoming) to simply have given up caring whether anything has any purpose, meaning or accountablility at all.

To put it this way - if your argument is for emotional convenience or some sort of psychological need being met - then Libertine has everyone in here beat.
Hands down.
There is no nothing to be accountable, for, to because or really anything.
Drive drunk?
If nobody got hurt and you made it home without getting caught then its literally gone from your mind instantly as far as any regrets, shame, guilt, accountability, spiritual consequences.
Awesome!
Awesome as far as emotional ease and psychological relaxation anyways.

Maybe even as good (maybe better?) would be to be the 'Agnostic' or the one who 'believes there is some sort of spirituality' (but its a washy dreamy open ended thing). Fantastic - where you would struggle with accountability or question the consequences then just forget about it. It not important.
When you do want to ease an encounter with mortality then heck.. we all go to heaven right and we are all good inside right.

So the point is - your theory here is a very popular one with critics and in itself offers you a 'feeling of superiority' if you want.
However it just doesnt pan out in real life circumstances.
The reason it doesnt work is because your assessment of what a Christian believer faces and gets from his/her belief is inaccurate on the whole.

Most Christians do not believe Christianity is an 'Opiate' even though Im sure you can find individuals or select groups who do use (abuse) it in that sense.

Thats quite a bold assertion you just made up to serve yourself.
I would suggest that (especially nowadays) most people putting faith in in the Bible, do so because they have and had decided to challenge and be challenged by its claims.
Then they realise its not a facade.
Not you though.. apparently you are intellectually and psychologically more powerful because you just say so.

There is not necessarily any need to face internal struggles over spirituality, mortality and the nature or existance of God.
Take a walk down any Main street in your country and see thousands of people ( I would dare say the majority nowadays) who have easily replaced that with consumerism, entertainments, money, status, looks, sex, drugs, oh man.. the list of social devices and just plain apathy could go on and on and on here.
The fact is that including a God into their plans is just asking for a whale of a difficult time here.
For many it would mean dropping everything they know, worked to believe in and trying to learn new ways all over again.
Highly Traumatic!

See if this explains everything:
- The reason you think religious folk are so Naive is (honestly) because you have a Naive understanding of what (in your mind) they believe.
Naturally, of course, your rationalisations and logic is also simplistic and weak in order to get to your naive presumptions.

I know it hasnt crossed your mind but just consider for a while that YOUR understanding of what they believe is all wrong.
Make more sense now?

 

Erasmus has a serious problem with reality.

There are people who can help you with that, Erasmus.

People who don't rely on imaginary friends in the sky and fear boogeymen under the ground.

Yes, you CAN make it, buddy!

 

Libertine.. I think I just saw you on last nights episode of King of the Hill.
Bobby joins the Pagan Club. 'The Circle of Artemis'.
Hilarious!

 

God is a bunch of bullshit lies fabricated to make people do things that aren't bad. Such as, if someone believed in god, they wouldn't steal for that is a "sin". It's a bunch of bullshit.

I want to know how you all figure there is someone who created the universe. Where did he come from I wonder?

Dumbasses. I can't believe you have such a denial over something so obvious. You know what christianity is? The worst drug of all. It changes everything a person does. People worship god so that they don't go to hell, which is a bunch of bullshit too. Where in the fuck do you suppose that is?

If you are really blind enough to say that something was here before everything was and made everything, you are a total nutcase.

Sure something made the universe, but it was probably something scientific. Not some bullshit imaginary friend.

 

yep.. to be Seventeen.
Its quite an age to be!

 

So you think that just because of my age I'm being ignorant? I didn't see you answering any of my questions.

1. Why do you believe god exists?
2. What made god if god made everything?
3. What makes jesus so special? (Being nailed to a cross? BULLSHIT)
4. Why do you believe so strongly that you cannot accept the fact that there is NO GOD?

 

Where did the ball of primordial plasma come from?

Ummm, quit generalizing

 

Reality exists. For all practical purposes, reality and existence are interchangable in almost every way. Everyone has some experience of this simple fact.

Everyone has some idea of what reality is. This idea, hopefully, is a more or less educated, ever-expanding understanding that allows for, harmonizes, or weaves together (pick your metaphor) the existence of everything that exists. Reality is the sum total of all possible modes of existence including the material, the emotional, the biological, the social, the intellectual, and, of course, any other reasonable possibilities of what may be.

Rarely, however, does any person's total understanding of reality completely correspond with that of any other person's. For the most part, we may agree on just about everything, but there are always those things that may be primal, self-evident reality to me, but are absolutely incomprehensible to you, and vice versa.

Like most people, I have a considerable psychological investment in the idea that my beliefs about the nature of reality are accurate. Of course, belief and/or disbelief is not necessarily evidence for the existence or non-existence of anything, but I am inclined to believe that there is perfect correspondence between what I understand reality to be and what reality actually is. I am always open to your reality-adjusting ideas, however.

The one thing I know is, there is always more to all of this.

So, the question is, what if reality is, at it's most primal level of existence, just one thing? What is doing all this existing? What if this one thing is not a what but a who? Who is this absolute primal being that is inspiring, performing, actually BEING all possible modes of existence (including the material, the emotional, the biological, the social, the intellectual, and, of course, any other reasonable possibilities of what may be)?

What if, whenever you are confronted with anyone's idea of God, you remind that person that the reality of God transcends all concepts of God, theirs, mine, even yours.

What do you think?

Peace and Love

 

Molecules and energy.

Here's my theory on christianity: It's a nice thought. Lots of great people have done great stuff in god's name, but lots of great people have done great stuff without religion, too.

The bible's reliability is zero. You cannot prove it true using itself. The conditions which constitute proof of god are all within those pages somewhere, and I'm sure by no accident.

The all-loving god thing is cool. The all-loving jesus thing is cool, whether they're the same guy or not. It would seem to me that the lesson he taught and the model he gave were more important than the religion. Peace and love, amiright? God's paradox, though, is that he is supposedly all-loving and just and of course he's free of sin, too, and then he kills tons of people and publicly announces his jealousy of other gods, and commands adultery, and worst of all, makes hell. How do christians rationalize hell? It just doesn't make sense for an all-loving diety to send people to get tortured forever just because they didn't believe something for which no evidence was procured, or went to work on a sunday, or had an affair, or followed buddha. Those would not be eternal-torture-worthy offenses in the eyes of a loving god, and I'm perfectly confident making that assertion.

As for all that "in the beginning" stuff... If god has existed forever, what did he do before 6000 years ago? Was he asleep? Did he have another universe to play with? If he didn't, how was he created? He can't have created himself, 'cause you need to exist before you have will or divine creation power or anything. Did some other entity create him etc...

The scientific version is much more plausible. Energy can neither be created or destroyed, so the entire universe before the big bang existed at the small ball size, or in some different plane altogether. That's just guesswork though. The evidence indicates a huge explosion or "expansion." Organic molecule have been created in a lab without much trouble. Give the earth as a petri dish, and I'd say it's a short step (geologic timewise) from there to self-replicating organic molecules, to cells, to everything else. 4.6 billion years is a long time.