GOD ? or Evolution?

Oh Man...

Occam is so frustrated...

So many acute minds....
So many splitting hairs...

WE KNOW reality evolves...
Well after all it was all a cloud of hydrogen to start. NO?

How did we end up with 3rd generation stars spitting out the heavy elements?
NATURAL EVOLUTION.

That EVERY ELEMENT in you body heavier than helium was born in side a star.

Yet you say the same set of natural laws that allows this.
Does not allow the evolution of life.

Yet life is obviously EMBEDDED in the structure of reality as we observe it.

There IS a methodology.
There IS is structure established by the OBJECTIVE LAWS OF REALITY
and LONG history to life.
The complexity of it requires that.

Unless. of course...

You simply say..god made it in 4004 bc
What a sad refusal to join the adventure that is.

Occam

 

^^ hear hear!

but i still have room for spirituality in my universe.

 

Spirituality is really nothingness so there is plenty of room for it. Too bad so many people waste so much time on nothingness.

 

Libertine..

And thus, technically... hope, love, art, beauty, justice, democracy,
humour, wonder, belief, faith, truth...........exct exct...
Are also nothingness.
For they do not exist as real things in the world.
Only as interpretations/synaptic activity. As concepts within our heads.

Do we waste too much time on these?

Spirituallity has 6 billion definitions.
And like occams, most of them are complex and hard to turn into
words.
There is also a great divide between the external and internal spiritual
position..

Occams position on the evolution of reality has ZERO to do with
his position on spirituality. And there is plenty of room in occams
reality for spirituallity as there is in trippin BTM's.

It's the ones that get god and spirits and religious dogma confused
in there heads that come up with the idea that if you believe in a direction
behind reality you must be talking hell/heaven/spirits..exct......

That may be so for the religious..

But occam is not religious.

Occam

 

As far as God vs. Evolution goes, I'd say that the two could easily go hand-in-hand, depending on what you believe.

Spirituality = nothingness and a waste of time? I disagree.

Each person should find the belief system that works for them. That isn't a waste of time, especially when so many people claim that their spirituality or religion adds meaning and purpose to their lives. And like Occam said, it may not be a real, tangible thing, but that doesn't detract from its potential value.

 

The big BANG!!!!!!! Ok so how did it start?Stuff from leftover universe reacts in some kind of cemical reation(I cant rember I learned this at a museum) which starts every thing off with stars and bunches of rock.It becomes the universe we know and love.But we were not here....All reality is thoughts....What we see hear smell and touch are all parts of the brian.Not "us". so all this who's thoughts are the big bang that gives it shape a name and ego and phisical senseation who starts off the cycle of the universe evoluving and destroying itself for all "time"?Who made us as the self(Or no self same thing)? God the ulimate reality one with everything and everyone.We and everythings else are his thoughts...but can you comprhend him?No...I can not and you can not....hes that big/small

 

There you go. Enjoy.

 

Art Delfo

Thats an interesting opinion..

And as a mater of interest...
*Human beings have no idea what existed before the
'bang' Or what the 'singularity' actually was.
I'ts all speculation based on 'reverse engineering' the
physical evolution of the universe.

*How can we exist as nothing but thought when
you yourself say that touch , sight, exct are 'part of the brain'
Is the brain nothing but thought?

No..Occam reasons therefore he exists.
And thus 'a' reality exists for occam to be a part of.
One cannot 'exist' without a reality of laws to 'exist' in.

God would have to say the same thing.
And cannot exist before a reality existed to allow him to be.

Thus reality existed first. not god.
So how can it be a thought in the mind of god?

Occam

 

PS

And if a reality existed first..
Where did it come from.?

[opinion]
It has always existed and always will.
Reality is not dependent on time.
Time [motion] is a result of a processing reality.

There is no logic or evidence that requires reality to have been created.
Thats just human preconception.

We dont have the smarts to fully comprehend the idea of something
always existing...
Of 'infinite'
Thus we conjure up gods so we can say something made it.
And call the god infinite because that sounds mysterious.

Occam

 

Reality exists. Lets call it the Universe and assume its been there for a while. Lets pressume the Big Bang, and say it very well may have happened 23 different times already in a similar way. The first time, like the other times it started with a massive Speck.

So the question is not only of the origins of the Speck, but also this fabric in and around the Speck we will call the Space.

The question is quite simple, although the answer is impossible. One possibility is that a 'Creator' created the Speck along with the Space and pressumably Himself: this option allows me to at least feel like my existence, although existent through complete randomness, has some meaning, but then I realize what I really wanted was Real meaning, for me, right now. So then I created relationships with other talking beings and created meaning by striving for happiness and self set goals.

Without the 'Creator' the creation of the Speck and the Space would be absurd and meaningless and most importantly happenstance. (So my existence is meaningless and I feel a pit in my stomach. Then I realize what made me assume in the first place that there was external meaning, my Ego. My name is Thumontico and I exist, others are like me and We are superior to other Beings that make noise and move around... I thought I must be special and created a 'Creator' to facillitate the fiction, that facillitated living my life. But then I realized my Ego was the same as the Ego of generations of thinking people that created a 'Creator'.) So then I created relationships with other talking beings and created meaning by striving for happiness and self set goals.

 

Thumontico

You say that without a creator. the creation of the speck would be absurd and meaningless. This assumes it was created.

Occam finds it far more reasonable to assume it has allways existed.
For while we see STRUCTURES created in this universe. From what exists
already. And we 'are' such, and create such.
We dont see mater/energy/space created from nothing or vanishing from reality.

If Humanity has NEVER seen any mater/space/energy so created or uncreated.
Why do we assume it can be?
Why do we assume ALL of it was?

Occam can see just as much 'meaning' to life in a universe that has allways existed in on form or another. And has been directed to result in life and US
by a being that came from within the universe.

As universe created by a god that created itself first.

In both cases a being beyond our imaginings has desired/directed us to be.

The principle of parsimony[occams razor] asks why unnecessary factors need be introduced.

A god that created itself is such a factor. And exists only because humans cannot accept the concept that reality was not created. But has allways been.

Occam

 

i just had an dicussion about this with my friends a day ago. I explained to them how the universe could have been forever always, but they just kept telling me that someone had to have created it. One said "what about Newtons law every action has an equal and opposite reaction" and i explained that the universe's expansion and collapsing would provide a "force" (this may or may not be correct its just how i understand what ive read about cosmology). Then they would ask "well where did this initial energy come from?" and i reply it has always been there; i guess thats what you mean when you say humans can't comprehend the idea of reality always existing, because they didnt buy it. Is this a valid response when questioned about a "force" needed to set off the big bang?

 

you are right occam

 

Colours

Newtons law or any other revealed law of reality
Controls our reality...yes
But has NOTHING to do with the laws that allow REALITY
ITSELF
to exist.

THOSE laws.
Are something we know exist
That science knows exists
But we average people and the human scientific method
has NO understanding of.

Ask your friends
"provide an example of mater/space/energy being created
or
uncreated"
There are no such examples in human history or knowing

Thus..it is reasonable to posit that...
ALL mater/space/energy HAS ALWAYS BEEN
AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

Your friends will have a fine problem with thiis
For there are NO examples of 'acausal creation/uncreation'

Occam

 

Thumontico

Possibly

Occam

 

coming into being and being are two different things and one cannot argue from a being that there was a coming into being

 

"Ask your friends
"provide an example of mater/space/energy being created
or
uncreated"
There are no such examples in human history or knowing"

I would assume they would jsut respond with something like, "exactly, no human examples, 'cause God did it." I dont think they would quite understand the question.

 

I think EVERYBODY has the theory wrong. But only by a little. Here's what I mean. I believe, God planted the seeds of life on EVERY planet that they could grow on.
Would it Dis-Prove the Christian Bible if life WERE discovered out in Space?
No. I think it would only PROVE the existance of God.

The Other side of this is simple. Mankind evolved from the primorial ooze.
(God's Seeds of Life)
Just my two cents.

 

Still though God isn't necessary. Assuming the given suspected conditions of primordial Earth and that the planet could not naturally produce life (which is arguable), the possiblities of a 'divinely' seeded planet is no more likely than a planet seeded by happenstance (meteorite w/ base organisms on board hitting the planet, any other naturalistic explaination) because we simply do not know.

Both of your hypotheses require God, but I don't understand why. I see the two phenomenon of creation of Reality and creation of Humanity quite different and seperate. I can imagine the creation of Humanity 100 different ways, but I cannot imagine the creation of the Universe or the Eternal existence of the universe once.

It is easier for me to imagine a Supreme being creating the universe because I don't have to imagine anything, maybe some flashing lights and smoke, but I am completely relieved from thinking about the logistics of the matter and digress to admit my human inferiority and then fall asleep or go to church... Either way this is not a sufficient way of looking at it.

However, the issue has never been about mine or your ability to imagine. Imagination is wonderful in what it is, but it is finite. We have the option to deal with speculation or probability, I believe that second is the more reliable.

I cannot imagine a universe that has always existed, it is counter intuitive. But as occam says, it is reasonable to assume since no one has ever seen matter/energy created nor destroyed that it hasn't. This reasoning allows me to imagine this possible truth.

In ANY case the means by which we came into existence is of no non-self-inflicted consequence. I have been presented with evidence and do not see a necessity or reason for God. Perhaps there was a creator, but according to my perception of reality he has no bearing on my consciousness/life. God is moot.
-
We need some fucking golf shoes... or we'll never get out of this place alive.

 

I dont really talk of a "Creator"

More of a "Ulimate reality" thats what god is to me but you just cant reduce himm to just one thing or defition.