Gay babies? Live or die?

The vast majority of people who are trapped in the wrong body, find things difficult. But yes, some do find it harder than others. I have yet to speak to anyone who shares similar experiences to me though, who have described being in the wrong body as ''enjoyable''. I myself, would much rather have just been born in a normal female body. My genes are mostly female, but I was still brought up as male due to a hormonal defect. Being brought up as the wrong gender for me was a horrific experience, and I definitely wouldnt wish what I've lived through, and still am going through, on anyone.

I'm not saying they'd prefer it if they were never born. But I do think The Imaginary Being's stance on the issue (that he'd accept and still love his child if they were LGBT, but deep down he'd be disappointed that they weren't ''normal'') would be one that most accepting parents would share. Im not saying all parents would be this way. But I think the majority of them would be. I think the desire for grandkids, and the wishing your children to be mini versions of yourself, are the prime reasons for that. Does that mean that those parents are ultimately selfish? I would definitely say so. Loving your kids means putting their wants and needs before your own.

 

Are you a transexual? Do you ever feel like you were a female having to pretend to be male?

And can we please stick to the topic? Would you allow a GLBT child to be born? Or do you choose abortion? And can you give your reasons why? Please stay on topic.

--QP

 

Isn't "The sex" very different to sexual orientation?
I can understand "The Sex" is set in stone.

I'm not wishing to diminish my own POV by saying sexual orientation isn't natural...
However, I have read it's nothing to do with sexual orientation at birth, but more a POSSIBLE deviation of the natural sexual experimentations while growing up...and a gay person is stunted (for want of a better word) experimenting with ones own sex rather than the opposite sex, around the age of 10-12.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article3025009.ece

I'm not sure that makes sense?

That might make sense but I don't know what you mean.

 

No.

No.

I don't know what you are talking about, tbh. What am I preaching?

I answered the question.

Personally: Ofcourse I'd value my baby.
Why? Because I'm not prejudiced.
Boring answer, but true.

What are my true colours?

Why am I a hypocrite?

 

Yes. They are completely different things. I was talking about in relation to transpeople, not gays. There is no connection between homosexuality, and people who feel they are born in the wrong body. (Although a lot of ignorant people do like to try and connect the two things) In fact in the same tests that established that some trans people have sex in brain structure of the opposite sex to that suggested by outer anatomy, there was no differences between the brains of straight and gay men. So far, no biological cause for homosexuality has been found. (though thats not to say that there isnt one) But a biological cause has been found for people who feel the opposite sex to that of which they were apparently born. So certainly for transpeople at least, it isnt beyond the realms of possibility, that one day it will be possible to tell if a baby will be trans before it is born.

I actually think in a lot of ways, that will be a very good thing. As if the child is not aborted, they will not be subject to the pain of being brought up as the wrong gender. And steps can be taken much earlier to give them the best chance at having a decent life in the gender of their brain sex. Most trans people today have to wait till post puberty for treatment, by which time it's like sticking a plaster on a huge gaping wound. Prevention of secondary sex characteristics is vital in helping trans people live a normal life. So early intervention would be great for that. While I can see the downside of knowing before birth that a child will be trans, the positives far outweigh the negatives in my opinion.

Seeing as I am not gay, I don't know anything about that. However, that does sound incredibly implausible to me. Whether people are born gay or not, Im not sure. But I know most gay people say they are not gay out of choice. Its just the way they naturally are. And that is good enough for me.

Well, you'd have to ask The Imaginary Being about that, seeing as it was him who said it. I think it makes sense though, you can be disappointed in your child without hating them or disowning them. Though I think it is very selfish, especially if the child has no control over the 'undesireable'' aspect of themselves.

 

Damn, this is the most moving reason why the world is a better place because of diversity: Yet the poster wishes to have never been born. Do we hold society responsible? Or do we "blame" the outcast? I go for the former. If the world was a more embracing place, nobody would wish they'd never been born.

--QP

 

this is fucked up question, i mean being a homophobe is one thing but killing your child because he/she is gay is just down right SICKENING.

 

I do wish I'd never been born. Is that due completely to my condition, or is it because of society? Having the condition itself is very painful, but there is no doubting that society's attitude to people like me increases that pain tenfold. Although the fact my body will never feel right, and the pain I feel over that will never go away, the fact that most in society would not treat me the same as any other female because of that hurts just as much, if not even more so. Its like adding more turmoil on top of turmoil which is already there. I cannot say for sure that its because of society's attiude towards transpeople, and intersex people brought up as the wrong gender that I wish I was never born, but it definitely is one of the main reasons, if not THE main reason.

The pain is already great, the added pain from society makes that pain unbearable at times. Being born this way is bad enough, but being born this way in the world we live in can be a living hell. It certainly has been for me at times.

 

Ok, fair enough.

I think it is more likely it will be easier to establish one over the other.
I think being gay is an equation...I won't attempt a laboured metaphor, but lets just say it's because of multiple factors, and not one outright thing.
You could be "born that way" but it never develops into adulthood.

I agree with you.

Well, it's not my theory.
It just does sound plausible to me.
I imagine in most cases where nothing is said to be "wrong" with you...
...what ever goes on, be it physically or emotionally, then it would be "just the way you are."
IMHO, it's how individuals "deal" with who they are that really ultimately matters...
...it's a difficuly subject, for sure.
...Let alone the premise we are supposedly meant to be dealing with.

I'll re-read with that in mind. Thanks. I'm the stupid one here.

 

I don't think, given the choice, I would ever kill my child. I could at the very least give it up for adoption.

 

Not the best way to debate a heated discussion - unless it is something you think is worthy of ridicule and scorn. I'm just sayin'

--QP

 

Why are you going back to that?
I'd hoped we had moved on from that point.
You raised many others regarding myself but now have abandoned them it seems.
Why?

 

Okay. So your POV has radically changed in less than 12 hours? Totally cool! My faith in the world is totally restored, dude! Thanks for keeping me updated! Are we (like) cool? Peace out, brother.

--QP

 

It is easier. Gender in brain structure (IE brain sex), unlike the mechanics of sexual orientation, is a cast iron medical fact which has been known about for a long time. The only thing thats happened in recent years, is that it's been discovered that some people's brain sex can contradict their physical outer sex. Due to this, scientists in the field believe that transpeople are literally born the opposite sex in the brain to the rest of the body. Seeing as no external factors can effect someone's brain sex. This would also explain why feeling like a member of the opposite sex is amongst the first memories that most transpeople have.

As for being gay, seeing as no biological cause has ever been found, its just down to interpretation. Especially if you yourself are not gay. However, I think there is a chance it is biological, seeing as you can't really choose your sexuality. Ive only ever been sexually and emotionally attracted to men. That wasn't something I ever chose, it's just naturally how I am. Although I was brought up as male, seeing as I've always identifed myself as female, I saw myself as heterosexual, not gay, for the fact that I liked men. You can certainly choose who you sleep with, but you can't choose who you're attracted to. That's completely natural and instinctive.

In saying that, until quite recently, a lot of doctors thought it necessary to operate on intersex babies at a young age, (including me) to make them appear as one sex on the outside, so they can live a ''normal life'', free of stigmatization from society. So theoretically, even with the knowledge that a child will most likely turn out trans, doctors still could advise parents to bring their children up as the sex of the outer anatomy, in the hope they will just fit into that role chosen for them. However, some places have already banned, or put heavy restrictions on operating on intersex babies purely for aesthetic reasons. So I think progress is slowly being made in that department.

I know it's not, but I got the impression that you agreed with it. I just go by what gay people say. They say they can't choose it, and I have no reason to doubt that. If they can't choose it, that would suggest to me it does have a biological basis, although without proof, that is just speculation. Regardless of whether its biology or not though, gay people are no lesser than heteros, and shouldn't be treated in a negative way just because of their sexuality.

You're not stupid. lol

 

Live. All human beings should be given a chance at life no matter what their sexual orientation. I would love my child whether it was gay or straight. It shouldn't be an issue.

 

Well QP, I was surprised at all the controversy your quite reasonable question garnered. It could be due to my escapism into Sci-Fi that gave me a perspective that your question was quite a legit hypothetical one.

Think GATTACA - a whole drama of the future where babies are enhanced to their parents' desire. And if there are defects they can be corrected or eliminated altogether. I love that movie, and eventually it may prove to be prophetic.

I asked a similar rhetorical question in a newspaper article on parenting - where everyone thinks themselves racially accepting - you know those liberal intellectuals who socialize with ppl of other races and are best friends. But the nuance is, when your son or daughter comes home with a B/F or G/F of the other race - how accepting are you then. What about marriage out of your race. I think that is what you were going for here, testing the limits of acceptance. For true acceptance has no limits.

Since I won't be having any babies, I can only surmise that I would give a pass to sexual orientation but would likely terminate some egregious physical anomaly. No, I will not take the extreme Piscean religious stance that all life must suffer thru its predestined pain.

So far, Invisible Soul gave about the most informed response, that she would not allow another to suffer as she has. But that is not exactly the question. I think you were merely going for the gay-gene determinant and whether ppl would stop a gay child from being born. And, it would probably be surprising that gay ppl out of self-loathing would terminate as much as would straight ppl out of loathing.

I have never had a child that I know of for certain - and had a stepchild and now grandchildren, neither of which are gay to my knowledge. However, I have had experience as a child care worker and know that each kid is an individual and sometimes annoying beyond their sexual orientation. I tend to like the kids that other co-workers hated because they were precocious, too smart, too outspoken, too mischievous, etc. I never accepted the mainstream cultural stupidity and rather like seeing that rebelliousness in kids.

Of course I would let a kid with that rebellious gay-gene get thru in hopes that increased numbers would change the current complacency.

(However, as an aside, I don't know if they will ever find that gay-gene or determinant. It has to be subtle probably beyond genetics. What about me. I grew up str8, made love to many women and hesitantly got into men during the sexual revolution. Now I admit I am more turned on by men than by women, but what was I when I was young. I really got boners for women. We bi ppl really skewer the numbers and suggest that sexual orientation may be mutable and not set in stone or genes. )

 

My own mother's attitude towards me is a classic example of that way of thinking. She says she doesn't mind gay or trans people, yet she sees me as ''the bane of her life'', blames me for her the state of her life, and quite clearly wishes that I'd been born ''normal''. The Imaginary Being's post was another example of the type of people you are talking about. He said he has no problem with gays, but would be disappointed if his own child was gay. I do think it's very telling that even people who act as if they have no prejudice towards gay or transpeople, when really put to the test, do show signs of prejudice underneath the surface. It's like the ''I don't mind that, just so long as it isnt in my own back door'' type attitude. They dont mind trans or gay people, but if it was their own child, somehow the attitude changes. And you are right, acceptance is all or nothing really. If there are limits to your acceptance, then you are not truly accepting.

I was being purely hypothetical, as I cannot have children. I would not want anyone to suffer as I have, especially my own child. If I could have children, and I was told beforehand it would be gay, that would not be a problem to me whatsoever. As for transpeople, I know what a lot of them go through, and it is horrible. I do wish I'd been aborted, but I don't think I'd abort a child for that reason. I'd show my child a lot more understanding, love and affection, than I was shown as a child.

The existence of bi people really do make the possibility of there being a gay gene quite unlikely. However, I do strongly believe that for most people at least, that your sexuality is what it is, and can't be changed. You can't choose who you're attracted to, that is just instinctive and natural. Seeing as this is the case, I would say that sexuality has a biological basis.

 

yeah, but the point of the movie was the opposite - that although they had these genetically enhanced people the guy who was not still proved to be just as efficient as they were.

i hope genetical engineering will never allow one to choose what kind of attributes their kids are gonna have. to me, it all seems artificial and fake, close to inhuman, to do something like that. but sadly, there are a lot of stupid people out there who would do just that. if it became a possibility they would put their kid together down to the most irrelevant details like eye color. and say you were that kid --- how would you know how much of you is you and how much is your parents? wouldn't that feel like really living a lie?

 

Hey QP, Yep, I'd sure as hell have a gay kid and why not? Seems pretty straight forward (no pun intented) and simple to me. Some of my adopted sons are of a different race but race played no part in my desire to be their Dad...I just liked the little human being that they were.

 

I think the most interesting outcome of this hypothetical scenario, is just how religious people who both condemn homosexuality and abortion would deal with it. Both things are obviously ''against god's will'' so what would they do in that situation? lol

And although transpeople are never mentioned in the bible, (nor I think the Koran for that matter) some religious people still use their religions to condemn those people. Its definitely possible that one day doctors will be able to tell before birth that a child has a brain of the opposite sex to the outer sex organs. It would be interesting to see how these people who use religion to hate would cope with the addition of such knowledge.