Fundie shithead uses tsunami as excuse to bash earth-centered faiths!

sure kitty, feel free to post what you find in this talk!

 

Then you know some different Christians than I do.. or read from (did you check out that Chick tract thing?).. and who in this thread are you calling a bigot? Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them a bigot...

 

i'm sure there are many things that i would probably respectfully but strongly disagree with Rev. Graham on, but i do agree with the sentiments expressed in his statement above. many christians feel that they must share their beliefs in the form of seeking converts, and while that to a pagan's mind might seem offensive, if that is what they genuinely believe they need to be doing, then i really have no place to argue with that. however, rev. graham acknowledges in the above statement that evangelism can be done in a non-invasive, respectful way. there is a big difference between being open to those who are seeking, and trying to push your views on other people.

to be quite honest, i think this is where the real rift between christianity and the pagan faiths occurs. and i think it has to do with a difference in worldview, not necessarily in core values. we all value love, respect, freedom, justice, healing...that which is sacred. we have different ideas about how to best go about serving the Sacred, but it is something we both value. the problems arise when the worldviews clash. christianity is a faith that believes there is only one true and correct way of serving God, and that it is their duty to get as many people as possible to do things in that way. pagans believe that there are many ways of serving the gods, and therefore all paths are valid; it is therefore seen as an insult to a person, and to the gods themselves, to interfere with their spiritual path because that is how the gods choose to speak to that person. the end result is that the two kinds of religions keep missing each other, not seeing eye-to-eye, and animosity arises. quite frankly i don't think this is what either God(s) had intended. i don't think pagans in general really have any problem with christianity as a religion; in fact most pagans i know have a very deep respect for jesus as a spiritual teacher and actually feel offense at what they see as a twisting of his teachings by his own followers. most have a great deal of respect for a christian who can share their faith (which is not the same thing as seeking conversion) in a non-invasive way. the problem is we are trying to interpret each others faiths from the position of our own worldviews, without seeing the other's at all.

there's a guy at the public market who sells spices. when we buy something from him, he always puts a little slip of paper in the bag, with a poem on it, the message of which is something along the lines of, "i'm a christian and i'm not going to try to convert you because i don't really care what religion you are, or even if you have one. but i'm going to pray for blessings for you anyway because i like you, and my god likes you too, regardless." even my dour atheist husband was touched by this, and we kept one of these poems stuck on our fridge for a long time (well, until the cat knocked it down and chewed it up.) from the perspective of someone of another faith, i really think that's the best way a christian can get christ's message across: by genuinely sharing faith, rather than preaching and judging. (in defense of my cat, i really don't know if it has any opinion either way regarding religion. i think it just liked the taste of the ink.)

 

Nice said Kitty! I was trying to say something similar with the whole monotheistic/polytheistic thing but you said it more clear..

And yeah.. me as a pagan/buddhist sorta person respect Jesus a great deal and think there is some great stuff in the Bible (I have different translations and I actually highlighted parts that really stood out to me).. so so far your views on pagans vs christianity is spot on

 

Ok first of all.. you know Jack Chick???

Jack Chicks Artwork is amazing and is experiencing a big revival amongst the 'RetroChic' crowd.

If you honestly think Jack Chick style Christianity is a 'good example' of what Christians are doing - you NEED TO WAKE THE HECK UP MAN!!

Do you live on an island in a non-Christian Nation?
Im honestly asking?

AmandaN is a Bigot (and a Poser) after she deliberately made-up non-Christian doctrines, attributed them to Christian Relief Agencies and tried to pretend she was discounting their good intentions and insisted they were selfish reasons.

Bigot

 

Ohhhhwwww... Dutch Diciple... I really feel for you that you have to put up with people like Brocktoon.. they aren't good advertisment for your religion

And as for AmandaN.. I don't know the post you're referring to but from the posts I have read, I give her a lot of credit.. something you seem to have lost after only two posts.. please give a link to the thread you're talking about and if you really feel that she is bashing or flaming report her to a mod.. since that's the normal procedure. However I'd like to point out.. again.. that having a different opinion doesn't make you a flamer, basher or bigot.

Really.. I mean.. come on..

 

Ohw and by the way.. I'm not a 'man' as the 'girlish' implies and you can see where I live right below the avatar as well.. it's a protestant monarchy and if you'd read my previous posts you could see that I was raised Catholic and even took Bible classes, went to protestant festival etc.. so I know what I'm talking about ok?

 

Why are you attacking and insulting me? I've not once insulted you, I've just put forward my own arguments based on my own research on why I don't believe what you believe...

If you can't have an intellegent discussion without insulting and lieing about me, then you're not worth the effort... I'm sure that after this little outburst, everyone here will see who the real bigot is.

 

ok, this is just the results of a quick search, or rather a search that should have been quick if i hadn't have had to keep restarting my ancient dinosaur computer.

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_article.html?a=usny&id=8842
essay from witchvox; there may be more here, but it's a huge site with a lot of information and a little overwhelming. this article may clear up some misconceptions regarding our worldview, and clear up some confusion that some christians may have regarding earth-based faiths, such as the confusion over how can we regard the earth as sacred when "it sometimes does 'bad' things." i am not interested in starting or continuing an argument over "rightness" or "wrongness"; i hope its clear by now that i respect the christian viewpoint even though i may disagree with the theology its based on. just providing information for those who are genuinely curious as to how pagans view this disaster.

llewellyn website has link to red cross & call for aid; llewellyn is a book publisher that publishes a lot of pagan titles, although they are not exclusively a pagan publisher. i did find a lot of links to the red cross and other relief groups on various pages.

starhawk of course has lots of information:
http://www.starhawk.org/activism/tsunami_relief.html
tsunami aid
http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism.html
general activism
starhawk is a pagan author and political activist involved in the global justice movement, among other things. currently she is on tour, so i don't know what she is doing personally for the victims, aside from what she posted in the above writings. i'm on her mailing list, so i'm sure i'll hear more eventually.


The Universal Terran Church posted starhawk's info on their mailing list; this is the yahoo group of a small church based in canandaigua, ny that started out as a pagan church & now considers itself an interfaith church. yes, pagans & christians (& others) can and do worship side by side with love in their hearts. this is one of the groups i'm involved with.

The WebPath's yahoo group had some postings of numerous relief organizations, including the red cross, as well as some poetry as an emotional response to the tragedy. this is another local group i'm involved with.

i've still to check PagaNet News; they usually have a lot of information on pagan charity projects, as does Circle Sanctuary in wisconsin. there's some military pagan groups i've yet to check as well, and numerous student groups throughout the country that are raising funds. probably what i'll find is more of the same; as i said, pagans care more about action than religious visibility, and so are more likely to contribute to an existing secular group or a non-proseltyzing religious group of another faith (including christians) than waste time and resources forming their own. pagan charity outreach groups that do exist are not yet large enough for global outreach.

 

hehe, maybe you touched a nerve.

 

Your not up to the effort, but since you want to deny any insults lets quote the paragraph that started it all:

"Out of the 55 world organisations helping out with the disaster in asia, 22 of them have some form of religious basis... that means that 33 of them have no religious connection what so ever, (so if you think about it, they have been set-up, and are helping because they want to, nd not because they are trying to gain any favour with god)."

You plainly state that religious organisations are not helping out for any other reason to 'gain favour' with God

For starters - you attributed a false doctrine to many of those 22 organisations.
Then you discredited their intentions and accused them of working for their own interests.

Thats was a pissy little cheap shot so stop pretending like you are just trying to 'have an intelligent discussion' or that you are all above insulting people.

You pulled off a real sick little insult and even managed to attribute to them beliefs which are offensive to their Faiths.

Classy!

 

If these people are not doing it to gain favour with their god (be it directly, or because they know that doing good work such as aid will please their god) - why do they name the agencies after their religion? (Christian Cid, Cafod - the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development, World Jewish Aid, The Islamic Aid Emergency Relief Fund, etc..) You know full well they are doing it to gain favour.

Another thing that pisses me off about these groups is that they don't even realise that it's THEMSELVES that's that are responsable for the good work they do.. not their god... They say things like "Thank god for giving us the strength to build this foundation and to help these people".. but in reality.. they had the strength in themselves...

The aid itself is more than welcome, and that's a great thing... but when they then use it as an oppertunity to push their views onto others (people who have suffered enough already) - that's going over the line.

 

You insist that I - 'know full well they are doing it to gain favour'
and your basis for this?
Because Their names are anagrams that, written in full reveal who they are?
And..
Because the Christians (or Jews) identify themselves in the Titles, this somehow shows they are doing it to win favour with God?

Seriously.. Can you PLEASE explain that once again.
I would really love to hear why identifying their group 'therefore' means they are trying to win favour with GOd?

Dont gloss over that please.. I would LOVE to see you 'break down' the 'logic' and 'reason' in that assertion of yours!

And once again you are a natural bigot who describes Evangelising as 'Pushing their views' on 'Victims'.

This view of yours, no doubt based on your prejudiced beliefs about Brown People or something equally prejudiced?

Once again - another vicious insult and clear case of bigotry from you Amanda.

 

When you see someone on the street in need, do you help them because it will make yourself look better or because you honestly care?

I don't do what I do merely based on the fact that it is God's will. I genuinely care about people. I help others because I feel for them.

 

That's cool Epiphany

Makes you wonder indeed.. why do those help organisation have such a religieus name.. ah well..

 

I'm sorry, but Epiphany and Brocktoon, you both lack the rationality needed to have this discussion... you try and pick up on the smallest thing and blow it out of all preportion, while you ignore the most important factors.

Faith can be a wonderful thing, and I'm glad that you both have it, but when you let your faith blind you to the truth that both science and history have taught us, you become dangerous.

I bet you're the sort of person, that if you was unlucky enough to catch cancer, you'd refuse the modern technology and drugs that could well save your life, instead choosing to pray to be cured... out of you, and the guys who accepted the treatment, I wonder who would survive?

Anyway, I'm going away for the weekend, but when I get back I'll check these posts and see if there is anything constructive and intellegent posted... if there is, i'll add my own views, otherwise I'm just going to let this thread die.

 

Well...this thread is now 6 pages of length now...so I thionk it's a good idea if the people that started this thread, again summing up the core things we talk about, so that we clearly know what belongs to this subject and what not, otherwise we'd drift off big time.

Velvet, wanna sum it up?

 

Thanks for the honor.. here we go:

The thread started out with a discussion about the tsunami in Asia and the role of religion: how do nature based religions feel about 'their Mother Nature' after something like that? How does God fit into this for other religions?

After a while the discussion shifted and became more about the true nature/reason for helping (in general and specific now in Asia): why do people help, what's the role of their religion? Can you help and evangelise (any religion) at the same time, how ethical is that?

And now it's mainly a discussion going back and forth between fundy christian Brocktoon and (fundy? ) atheist Amanda

Does that sum it up?

 

Amanda, i do think you're being a bit narrow-minded & judgemental yourself. velvet's right, you do come across as a fundamentalist atheist, at least in this conversation. what does it matter to you whether or not someone helps because they want to please their god, or because they want to please themselves, just as long as they help? what difference does it make, when they reach inside for that strength to go that extra mile, whether they call it God or personal power? how does what goes on inside someone's head and heart affect you in anyway, as long as they are likewise respectful of your beliefs, or lack thereof?

and what makes you entitled, by that lack of belief or otherwise, to make wild, off-topic accusations as to whether or not someone would get proper medical care? how does that relate in anyway to this thread, aside from bolstering your own prejudcies?

quite frankly if someone were to wave a bible in my face (or the koran, or the vedas, or the charge or the goddess, for that matter) i would consider it rude & obnoxious. if i were struggling for life at the time, i would consider it opportunistic and offensive. but if someone's going to genuinely reach out to their fellow humans in a genuine attempt of fellowship and aid, it's not my place to question their religious motives in doing so, or what's going on internally, until it crosses the line of aggression, manipulation, or disrespect. which is not the case with a lot of religious charity organizations, probably even most of them.

truth be told, most christians aren't even evangelists, anyway. that's just one expression of christianity, that, by its very nature, it very vocal & visible. actually, most of the christians that i know personally find those that aggressively proseltyze to be just as obnoxious as i do, and a tad bit embarrassing to boot. most prefer to "witness" their faith through how they live they're lives. they reach out to those around them & help their fellow humans because the most important concept jesus taught was love for all humanity, and quite frankly even as a god-damned, tree-hugging, dirt-worshipping, heretic & pagan it seems to me that's a bloody good idea, even if it did come out of the mouth of a 2,000 street-preaching and slightly crazed hippie who fraternized with prostitutes & tax collectors. (note to christians: that description was not meant to be offensive. i have undying admiration & respect for the slightly crazed, as is probably apparent in the state of my everyday consciousness.)

you are becoming just as intolerant and judgemental as you are claiming your percieved opponents to be.

 

I apologise. I got caught up in the moment, lost track of what was important and what I was trying to say. I was trying to fight fire with fire, and in this case, it I've ended up with egg on my face. I'm not saying that it's all my fault, I was lead in this direction by the other party, but I'm happy to accept what you've said, and so apologise for it.

Going back to my original point... the help is more than welcome... it's the preaching and pushing that's not (and in my books, highly unethical and opportunistic). If these aid organisations are only helping so they can push their believes onto others, then maybe they are not as saintly as they are trying to make out?