I love the irony of people saying vegetarians shouldn't preach, before promptly delivering a lecture on their beliefs. This is an endless debate, and always goes round in circles and nobody changes their minds. Just let it be.
Let us not forget there is such a thing as biological individuality.When it comes to human diets , one size does NOT fit all.I don't care what other people choose to eat as such,but I object to propaganda and manipulation.
Are vegitarians REALLY oppressed? I understand that it might be annoying to see commercials about meat, but blame the National Beef Council and their counterparts. If the growers of other produce were as agressive promoting thier products, I as an occasional eater of meat, wouldn't feel put upon (even if they were advertizing for creamed corn, which I absolutely hate). It's just advertizement. I can sort of understand the annoyance. The whole "Just Say No" campaign seemed sort of oppressive, but in that case, there was an active effort to make those who didn't say no into pariah. I don't see that happening with veggies. The kind of opression I'm seeing, if you could call it that, seems to be somewhere along the lines of what anti-smokers (as opposed to non-smokers) claim to feel whenever they see someone light a cigarette. Or is it more along the lines of what anti-abortionists feel when they see an Emma Goldman clinic? I recently saw a documentary about a rogue crocodile which was attacking humans. In order to stop it, they called in a specialist in the humane trapping of crocodiles, however the trap they built used first a live chicken, then when that didn't work, a live goat for bait. All to save this man-eating crocodile (presumably to study it). The whole thing seemed somehow hypocritical. What would the veggie response have been to such a situation? Let the croc continue to eat people, kill the croc, or kill a different animal (or many if neccesary) and save the croc? Or would you have come up with some other alternative (and if so, what)? I'm curious as to the veggie response. Please don't take this as goading. My diet is largely veggie, myself, eating meat roughly three time a week (and then only free-range or purely organic) and vegitarian the rest of the time. I can understand the desire to see our fellow living creatures treated humanely. However, the title of this thread is "Fundamentalism," after all. So i'm led to believe that some people who read this thread are extremists on the subject. Surely they would have an opinion on the aforementioned situation. Note: I wont argue with whatever solution you would choose, I'd just like to know what you would do.
Alright, I just saw an advertizement for some brand of hot dog which I thought really was making fun of vegitarians. Those "be big, be meaty, be frank" commercials are just obnoxious. THAT would offend me tremendously, but you'll never get them to stop using them, complaints about how they are offensive to vegitarians will have no effect (not part of thier consumer base, so why should they care?) No one's going to answer my other question (about the crocodile), are they?
what was your question? i was gonna bring thatup one time, he says 'it's big. it's meaty. and frankly that's all the reality i need' anybody else see the irony in this?
"omnis" (normal ppl) are right and vegs are wrong. That's a fundamental knowledge to be a good person
You know... normality has never existed, and I don't think it ever will. You either get it or you don't, I get it.
Actually, no. I don't find it ironic. I find this series of commercials (all of which, for those of you who may not have seen them, feature a large man named Frank who stands at a grill and hands out hot dogs with a slice of testoterone driven pseudo-philosophy) to be just plain annoying. As for my question, it was in the post directly above my previous post. I'll quote it here: Another thought recently struck me, though. I wonder if it is difficult to follow a Judeo-Christian religion and maintain a veggitarian philosophy on the treatment of animals. In the Old Testament, they make a point of showing that God prefers the sacrifice of animals in His name over the fruits of agricultural labor (this is in the story of Cain and Abel). Do fundamentalists of Judeo-Christian religions, then run into a moral quandry about whether being kinder to animals is, in effect, claiming to be "better than God?" I wonder. Being a pagan, I don't have such a problem. So now, I have two questions on the thread. Both of which might possibly look like attempts to troll to some of the vegans and veggitarians who read this thread. They are not, I asssure you. But, at this point I have come to expect that they will be largely ignored.
I know one thing... I hadn't been to wal-mart in over a month or so. I last went there three days ago and for some reason, it's either my eyes playing tricks on me or people are becoming blimps. It does help with the "obesity epedemic" and I believe that it is much healthier. I'd much rather have people eating organic and free-range, but my moral logic just doesn't think the consumption of animals is correct. It's almost like slavery crossed with cannibalismism except it iesn't the consumption of your own... it's the consumption of a creature who never deserved it.
Is everything propaganda when it disagrees with your practices? Yes, there is biological individuality. Which is why you'd think not everyone would chow down on all the same meat pumped full of hormones and other unnatural shit. This applies to the majority, not the few who actually go to natural food stores and buy natural meats. Manipulation? We disagree with you, and we just present the facts. Facts like farmings effects on the environment, meats effects on health, and how the animals are treated in farming facilities. Theres no manipulation when presenting the facts, just denial from the person/persons on the receiving end.
I think Micheal Moore said it, but on average 97 percent of everything said is true... The most strangest and most outrageous things are ones that are true fact because most human brains would most likely never think of such a thing to begin with. Anywho, if saving 83 lives and a cleaner environment isn't enough to make you do the best to help the world, what is, but greed is always inevitable. ~ George
Are vegitarians REALLY oppressed? I understand that it might be annoying to see commercials about meat, but blame the National Beef Council and their counterparts. If the growers of other produce were as agressive promoting thier products, I as an occasional eater of meat, wouldn't feel put upon (even if they were advertizing for creamed corn, which I absolutely hate). It's just advertizement. Whether or not someone feels put-down on really depends on the individual’s situation. In some parts of the US, vegetarianism is more common. Vegetarians in these areas may have very few problems with co-workers, friends, and businesses. In other parts of the country, it is the polar opposite. The majority of the community may be involved in animal exploitative industries. People who strive to live differently may face rudeness and harassment at school, work, or in some businesses. Also, even if you dislike creamed corn, chances are it is not morally offensive to you. Many ethical vegetarians are morally opposed to the meat industry, so seeing certain meat ads that make fun of vegetarians or make light of the plight of animals can upset some people. I recently saw a documentary about a rogue crocodile which was attacking humans. In order to stop it, they called in a specialist in the humane trapping of crocodiles, however the trap they built used first a live chicken, then when that didn't work, a live goat for bait. All to save this man-eating crocodile (presumably to study it). The whole thing seemed somehow hypocritical. What would the veggie response have been to such a situation? Let the croc continue to eat people, kill the croc, or kill a different animal (or many if neccesary) and save the croc? Or would you have come up with some other alternative (and if so, what)? This is one of those extraordinary situations in which there are no completely good answers. Thankfully, situations such as this are relatively rare and do not have bearing on the way we should normally treat and interact with other species in everyday life. In the American South, there are occasional problems involving large alligators. Most response-team actions that I have seen on TV involve catch-poles, tranquilizers, and flatbed transport trucks. There is no completely "vegan" response to situations such as this. However, we could significantly reduce the number of animals we harm for definitely non-lifethreatening reasons by making some changes in the way we live our lifestyles and amuse ourselves. Another thought recently struck me, though. I wonder if it is difficult to follow a Judeo-Christian religion and maintain a veggitarian philosophy on the treatment of animals I’m not Christian either, but there are many vegetarian Christians who see the religion’s overall message as one of peace, and see respect for animals as completely compatible. Just as most Christians look past the Bible’s support for slavery and stoning people to death, Christian animal advocates look past the passages in apparent support for animal cruelty. And just as the Bible contains loving messages for humanity, it also contains messages of respect and honor for animals. Once again, I don’t follow the bible, but this is a pretty decent site for vegetarian Christians, in which they explain their reasoning. http://www.christianveg.com/
Peacegal, Thanks so much for providing me with a response to the questions I had. I understand what a moral quandry the crocodile question was and I applaud your honesty in simply admiting you wouldn't know how to deal with the situation differently. I remember seeing the way animal control officers dealt with alligators using humane methods, but I can assure you that this particular animal couldn't possibly have been controlled using the standard methods. The thing was just huge, I had never imagined that a crocodile could grow to such a size, so it was impossible to use the normal methods. If I remember correctly, they never were able to trap the thing and for all I know, it's still eating people. I do respect the vegan take on the sanctity of life, though I don't personally ascribe to it. There is no lifestyle, even vegan that doesn't do harm in one way or another. I'm not trying to start an argument here (truly) but the agricultural industry (which would most certainly grow if everyone were vegan) has caused it's own share of problems concerning the environment, and I don't just speak of the crap ADM pulls with genetic engineering and withholding of new strains of food to preserve their profit margin, nor of the damage pesticides and other chemicals introduced to the environment for agricultural purposes. I expect that the vast majority of vegans have just as much against these practices as I do. Historically, the rise of agriculture coincides with the rise of the concept of land ownership (and territoriality, and as a result, warfare on a large scale) and patriarchal society. There is a direct causal link between these things and I often wonder if we weren't better off, spiritually speaking, as a bunch of hunter/gatherers. Let's face it. In life one suffers and one causes (or contributes to) the suffering of others. We can try to keep this to a minimum, but we cannot avoid it completely. I am concientious about the level of suffering I cause, but I admit that I have a higher tolerance for the amount of suffering I cause than most vegans do (there may be a few really sadistic vegans out there, so I'm not going to completely discount the thought that there may actually be some vegans who cause more suffering than I). It's a judgement call, really. I often rage against those who cause more suffering than I, so I suppose I can expect to be raged against for the amount of suffering I cause by those who take measures to cause less suffering than I. It seems fair enough to me. I can get up in the morning and look at myself in the mirror and accept myself for the flawed creature that I am, and ultimately that's all that matters.
