Freewill vs. Determinism

Bradley - If we change our own brain chemistry, what makes it more than just our brain chemistry changing our brain chemistry? Certain actions have certain reactions, maybe some actions in the brain result in different neural linkages and chemical changes.

yyyesiam - How do you eliminate this internal thought? How do you end the silence? Once such a state is entered, it would be handy to exit from it again. What causes a person to pick a particular time to do so? Do you still react to your environment?

Whether gravity has an origin or not, I don't see why it is undefined. As a physical being perhaps. Perhaps we don't (at least I don't) understand a physical mechanism by which it works, but I don't think that makes it less useful. Perhaps the only way to know gravity is by its effects. Glass can bend and separate light, but by the same standards, I think this mechanism is undefined. And yet this concept has been put to many practical arguments. Both of these things are universal as far as we know. It seems that many things follow the same laws. Many things will behave in a predictable manner in a closed system. This is why I think determinism is so compelling.

I don't think it requires an origin. It seems to me that an origin would be its own kind of illogical, since something would happen without any inducement. The only way I see to avoid this and hold to origin would be to say that our universe sprouted from another, or from a multiverse, or something like that, but then those things need an origin as well.

What about time itself? Does time have an origin? Would time exist even if there were nothing to mark it by? There must be something without an origin, for how can something spring from nothing? If something exists outside of time, what does that mean? Does it mean that it remains constant through time, subject itself to none of the actions and reactions time may bring with it? If so, I would say that some things control actions and reactions, and some things are the actions and reactions. Forces in the universe direct and control actions and reactions.


OWB - I would reply that even if nobody knows what must happen, it must happen. Assume for a moment there is no god. It is 600 BC, and some random dude decides to drop a small rock and a large rock down a long chute which contains no air. Somehow. Those rocks would reach the ground at the same time regardless of whether anybody knew it. It had to be that way. The laws of the universe make it so.

Now assume again that there is no god. Scientists have discovered ways to really read what's going on inside a person's brain, so that they know that if Person A meets Person B at 10:13:29 AM on December 2, 2033, and the temperature is X, and the amount of pollution in the air is Y, and the distance between the closest edges of the Earth and Sun is Z, then Person A will say "Good morning" using a certain amount of lung capacity, at a certain pitch, with a certain expression. These scientists, upon figuring this out, seal this prediction in a vault to be opened no sooner than 10:14 AM, 12/2/2033, and then move on to completely different areas of study, never once doing anything differently now that they have this knowledge. When the right time rolls around, everything happens as predicted. Everything. Even the 12 thousand pages of variables I didn't mention were exactly as predicted. Here's the question: Did it happen like that because the scientists made that prediction? Did they, by knowing exactly what would happen when and where, change it from chance to destiny? I would answer no. It was always destined, but these scientists were merely able to discover it. Chance, then, is just our inability to understand destiny.

 

all you've shown me here is that you can't prove any of this. i have to say i think you skipped over the origin subject pretty fast. for there to be no origin requires that things always have been and always will be. this is pretty illogical and sounds like we're discussing the nature of god at this point. if there is no end and no beginning, things don't need to be one way or another.

 

If we change our brain chemistry through a change in behavior, this implies that we had a choice in how we behaved, and the way in which we behaved (a decision we made) has effectively changed us. In my mind, this means that we control our destinies more than we realize.

 

Hi FreakerSoup,

You say; “I would reply” but I would say reply to what? Because what you say really does apply to what I was talking about. What I’m talking about is that tricky word omniscient. You say if “scientists predicted” see that’s the problem scientists are men and men are not now nor have they ever been nor will they ever be omniscient. Omniscience, by definition is having the ability to know all things past, present and future. Now I not saying that there is an omniscient being but if there is, if he chooses to know that something will happen in the future that very knowing means that thing will happen. It is then predestined to happen. If it doesn’t happen then that being can not be said to be omniscient.

That brings us to what I was talking about; assuming that there is an Omniscient God that can predestine things just by knowing them can there be such a thing as free will. And I was trying to show that, yes, freewill and predestination can coexist.



PS You may be trying to tell me that you think all things are predestined to happen and thus it doesn’t matter what anyone knows or doesn't know and that there is no such thing as freewill. In that case you would be right, but the trouble for me is that solution is unsatisfactory even though it could be true. I kind of like to think that I have a choice in the matter, let’s say I find it comforting to think that. With that in mind I like to assume that we have freewill.

 

I believe in absolute freedom, mainly based on Sartre's Atheist existentialism. That's as much as i feel to elaborate for now.

 

are you skillful of will ?

a skillful determinist shall be called manipulator .

the skillful artist of creative will is freedom maker , a kind and true friend .

 

the illusion of freewill has been determined . it can be manipulated . yes , it is useful to the state that citizens believe they choose freely . this illusion of freewill is akin to the illusion of eternal life - at the root essence of the idea may be a vital and emotive reality relating to survival . the literal actuallity is repressed as idea and the illusions are most useful to the masters who have been determined to rule . this has been your civilization .

 

nothing has been determined here. we're all at a stand still.

 

yes , this civilization is stand-still dying and determinism can do nothing about it . survival is creative . peace is creative . eternal life is creative . i am pushing your belly button ... i am laughing with crows ... i am free to give you freewill .

freewill by nature does not manipulate an arguement . it touches , it tickles . it may cause indeterminate motion and this , like life , is good .

play free , think free . tis the divine anarchy .

 

The idea of an origin doesn't necessarily convey a time where nothing existed. Everything has existed for all time in a repetative pulse. A big bang that causes a big contraction that causes a big bang that causes a big contraction. These two occurances are dependent upon each other and they cause existance be born and die over and over. This balance is associated with a divine power, although the use of divine here is not meant to carry with it the baggage that so many people place on it. It is an abstract idea, and one that can not be explained through normal language, but can be felt.

All future actions depend upon those that occur before them. It is necessity. The assumption that humans have freewill is used to give ourselves a sense of control. We fear the realization that we are not in complete control of our destiny. And this fear causes us to be violent, sneaky, and selfish. We have lost our connection to existance because we consider ourselves something special. But this is only an illusion.

Maitreya

 

i don't know about anyone else, but i was talking about an original origin. an origin of all, including the process you speak of.

 

i am speaking of this moment as an origin . this origin can be touched by the will . at least you can hold it and know something from it . touch it with the will like an artist of peace , please .

cuz itsa shared moment ,
the origin moment

 

nicely said.

 

a determinist is caused to be a determinist who causes determinism . ha ha ha , destined to be a cause in a closed system . entropic .