Free Tibet - Boycott China Olympics!

As for the Tibetan issue ,it's not as clear cut as people here present it:
Firstly , it is important to notice that no country ever recognized Tibet as a country. Even when China was fragmented and didn't have a proper functioning government or when it was occupied by japan , no country in the world considered Tibet to be independent.
Under international law TIBET IS NOT A COUNTRY, though it was a country 700 years ago.
According to Western maps (check out Wikipedia) Tibet was a part of China as early as the 13th century- Yuan dynasty. The fact that it was semi independent before the second World War means nothing, many ares in China were independent at that time (parts of Yunan for example)
The fact that Tibetans were treated badly in the past is undeniable ,however the situation is improving rapidly. Tibetan enjoy better conditions than almost any other minority group in Asia (check out the horrendous situation of minorities in India or Burma or Thailand etc...) , the government invests millions . Tibetans are free to go to India for pilgrimage, they are free to become monks (Tibet has the highest percent of monks in whole Asia) while they are free NOT to support the monks economically (a burden taken by the government) in drastic contrast to conditions during the Dalai Lama's regime.
Just my 2 cents

 

I don't read/watch/listen the mass media only underground papers and finish thing called Takku.Net (underground news thing)
And as manipulated Fox news may be they can't be as full of propaganda ast he chinese media. And someone should bring up the fact that Chinese soldiers have killed pretty much Tibetan civilians. And can we blame all the Tibetan people about few murders made by some rioters who used the dissorder when commited those crimes.
I mean those murderes propably have nothing to do with politics.

 

Chinese army killed Tibetans? you mean in 1959? Correct, however that was almost 50 years ago , you want to boycott the Olympics for that? Will you boycott the London Olympics for the Amritsar Massacre ?

 

No,no i mean that they shot them some months ago you remember?
But no i don't boicot Asia and feel good about western nations.
Actualy i must say i'm almost happy that China will be more powerful than U.S.A

 

I don't get this argument that "the west" has no right to criticise the chinese government for human rights abuses, western governments perhaps, but generally western people have and had nothing to do with atrocities committed by and within their part of the world.

I like the bit about now chinese people are aware of the environment and pollution, sadly though it has taken a lot of environmental destruction for them to realise it though, and it looks as though there is going to be little reverse in this trend.

 

Hey I really like the look of that stadium they built, the one that looks like a giant bread basket, it's a nice design. Shame about the competitive shit that will go on inside it, I think they should donate the building to the falung gong movement afterwards, then I MIGHT be convinced that the chinese government are not a bunch of evil nazi cunts.

 

I didn't say you don't have the right, but I think this criticism is short sited and more like Western narcissism than a true effort to help

the actions of the Chinese government has very little to do with the Chinese people since they didn't elect the government , yet the Chinese people will be the first to suffer from such boycott

your spiritual movement (who believe aliens control the mind of Jiang Zemin) is a political threat to China's political stability. They were allowed to practice in a public until they took a political initiative and tried to over run the government.
now in the West political stability is a joke, one government fall we can always elect another. In China if the government falls what ensues is chaos. This chaos means starvation and death fort a large amount of people. This might sound romantic to some , but it sure doesn't sound romantic to the majority of the Chinese people.
What Westerners need to understand is that it will be the Communist party who will lead China to democracy and stability. A sudden "democratic" revolution will lead to something like Russia nad that is what everybody wants to avoid (ask the Russians)

 

Who said anything about a democratic revoltuion? We just want your country to stop torturing people and fucking up the environment. We think that you are perhaps slightly less accustomed to the damage that extends from capitalism though, and that you are more naive than us westerners. You are right that if the chinese government fell that it would be chaos, but it's already chaos and if our own governments fell here there would be chaos too. That becomes the reality of centralised control. It becomes corrupt and loses sight.

And about the falun gong movement trying to create a coup, well that's bullshit and you know it. Spiritual movements based upon passive principles donot a do that sort of thing, unless they are severly oppressed, in which case some of them somewhere acting out of sorts is quite llikely.

Does any of tha make sense to you? Now that China is relaxing its big brothership of the internet for a few weeks.

 

torturing people ? what are you basing this on?
Is Guantanamo in China?

As for the environment ,this is really unfair. The fact is that Western manufacturers moved their factories to the third world so that Westerners can feel good about themselves and blame others for pollution. Great Westerners get the best of both worlds, consume like crazy and blame other cultures for the ensuing pollution. Beautiful.
The fact is that most of the stuff manufactured in China is consumed by the West. If you care so much about the environment then convince your Western brothers to stop consuming so many unnecessary luxury products

This suggestion of superiority is unnecessary . Don't think the Chinese don't know what is going on in the world. There is satellite TV and Hong Kong magazines all in Chinese. Like it or not most Chinese people support the central government. It's true that local governments are often corrupt but the central government need their support cause it is not as strong as some people think.
The call for boycotting will only hurt ordinary Chinese and will contribute to nothing but increasing hostility. I can't see why anyone would want that. China is not North Korea. It is working hard towards achieving the same standard of living as in the West . How long did it take the West to reach such standards. Only 40 years ago black people couldn't sit on the same bus as white people in America. China just started 20 years ago. Forcing unrealistic standards on a country that is trying so hard is just a slap in the face from the elitist unrealistic West.

 

Don't change the topic we don't like Guantanamo eather.

What's the thing that reporters just disappear?
And chinese government denys that they have anything to do with this?
And what do you say about Chinese goverment shooting people and then selling their organs?

 

I challenge you to find a credible source for this kind of ridiculous alegation

 

Yeah even I think that sounds a bit far fetched.

 

Okay i wen't prety wild and i take back from what i said earlier
But i do claim that they sell organs.

 

I wonder what the 5,000 Chinese people who had their homes demolished and were moved think about the new olympic stadium. I bet they didn't get a say in whether or not they wanted to move for it.

 

all very true. I was orginially for boycotting the Olympics, at least the Opening Ceremonies, but now that they draw closer and the opening ceremonies commences in 3 days I've changed my mind. Even His Holiness the Dalai Lama doesn't want a boycott. This is based off his philosophies dervied from Buddhism that teach to not harm anyone even those who attempt and/or harm us.

It seems things already are not going China's way. I want the world and the Chinese citizens to understand what is going on. I do! But I have this gut feeling that China is going to be self-destructive. It may not happen at the Olympics, and it may start at the Olympics and spiral down over the course of some years. Either way I agree with you that China is committing numerous counts of human rights violations, killing the culture and religion of an ancient pepole, some might call what is happening a genocide.

The fact that international media is not allowed inside Tibet should signify a huge problem. I have had two friends inside Tibet over the course of the past year. One was studying and was forced to leave (along with all foreigners) in April/Mayish. Now I have another friend there now, and her e-mails are chilling and scary. I would like to share two paragraphs from a recent letter that was sent from my friend who is currently inside Tibet.

"So how does the government instill fear into the hearts of the public in order to make them obey? Along a long row of prayer wheels in the town's temple, there is a big gap in the wall which looks like it was left open on purpose. Through the gap, you can see military personnel going about their business. 2 days ago, there was a big military group assembling and polishing what looked like AK-47s rifles. All this you can see as you circumambulate the stupa. You can also find at least 2 guards standing behind sand bags with their rifles and their sharp bayonets at every gas station. A Tibetan friend here told me that military presence has stepped up big time, from minimal to extensive after the protests in March and as the Olympics approach. And you do see them aroung every corner, strolling around town and patrolling the streets. Even though the vast majority of the town is Tibetan, every single police and military personnel I've seen have been Han. Actually, the only Chinese in town are either police or business owers. I still haven't been able to find a restruant that's Tibetan run.

I counted today, and there are at least 7 police/public security stations within a 1km radius, all with camouflaged rifle-clutching, bullet-vested guards at the gates. In mainland China, it's estimated that there is 1 police to every 14,000 people. In Tibet, it's about 1 police to every 20 people. But recently, in sensitive areas of eastern Tibet, its as high as 1 police to 1 Tibetan. A few Tibetans here have told me they are afraid since 5 Tibetans have disappeared recently and they've heard no news on their whereabouts. While I hear whispers of arrests, shootings and police brutality, the Chinese people I've talked to denied anything having happened here. Their sense of patriotism, especially when they commonly use the term 'us Chinese' sickens me. I want to yell 'I'm not one of you' but I am, ethinicaly. So I sit and listen and remind myself that the best way to take down a fortress is from within. "


I was planning on going to the Olympics with family and to do some research. I didn't go for financial reasons amongst a few others. But the family I was going to go with decided not to go based on all the warnings put out by the US Department of State. China is putting itself into a conundrum. In order to enter China with a tourist VISA, not just for the olympics but in the months prior as well. People have to prove they have at least $3,000 in their bank account, have written letters from their boss/managers etc... I don't know...it's all so scary.

I would like to add one more paragraph about the censorship and monitoring of internet activity, it is not as much proof as way to show the intensity and fear the Chinese instill even in the Embassies.

"The embassy told me to watch our for a few signs: to look out for guys looking too relaxed always hanging out and smoking a cigarette in the corner and, precariously place objects on my laptop to check if anyone snuck in to bug my electronics. Apparently all the embassy employees have a 'shadower' and all their computers are bugged. Not even the tech specalist there know the extent to which Chinese Intellegence monitor their activity"

 

Will it come as a shock if I tell you that these people most likely support the economy and angry that they were moved in the same time.
I live in a new neighborhood in Shanghai where everybody is from different ares in old Shanghai (basically they were moved after their houses have been demolished). Now, nobody likes being moved from his house. But what you must know is that old houses didn't have a toilet or a shower. They were so hot in summer that people had to sleep outside and cold in the winter.
I have been to India and it's a democracy. The government doesn't have the power to move people from their house and so they still stay living in those conditions with sewers running open in the road , no toilets and showers etc.
From your point of view , the conduct of the Indian government might be superior, but from mine the Chinese government is truly acting for the benefit of the Chinese people (though I admit many of the local governments are corrupted. and by the way the internet is blocked locally-on the ISP level). Most Chinese people feel that way as well. If you really believe in democracy you should accept what they feel instead of trying to force them to follow your ideas.
Skip said:

Chinese people know very well what is going on.
They support a strong government against Tibetan separatist.How many times should I say it- Tibet is a part of China, every single country in the world admits it and no country ever recognized Tibet as independent. This makes the Tibetan issue an internal matter. The police let the Lhasa rioters loot and kill for 24 hours before they stepped in, in the West they would have stepped in much earlier (remember France a year ago), but the government knew this is a sensitive matter and thought that its best to be careful and perhaps they would clam on their own. It's only after they started killing people that the police stepped in.Of course there are certain conduct of the government which are wrong, but you can say that about every government.
The Chinese also support some forms of censorship (for example many support banning of pornography). There is a strong debate in the country about the boundaries of censorship, but many countries censor the internet (the USA for example). I don't see why this is a reason for boycott.
Why are Westerners so infatuated with Tiananmen? it happened such a long time ago. I bet most members of this forum were not even alive then.
You want to know why the internet is censored in China - the answer is 'face'. It's an Asian value which Westerners don't bother to understand.
As I said before, the media is opened to the Chinese from Hong Kong and Taiwan. What value is it if the BBC is blocked when only about 1% of the population understands English, while at the same time they can freely go to Hong Kong and enjoy scores of book defaming the Party's regime in their native language? The answer is 'face', it has nothing to do with prevention of information. Asia is not Europe , people think differently. Try to understand that.

 

Not at all. I believe it is quite likely that both people were relocated voluntarily and evicted by force. Both of these things are quite probable in China today. Do you know what kind of housing they were relocated to? Were any independent reporters allowed to be present when it happened?

 

I have only been to Beijing once in my life and that was 7 years ago.
If I were to judge by the situation in Shanghai, everyone that was moved from old houses ended up in much better housing arrangement. I don't think it's even possible to create such bad housing facilities these days. The fact that modern housings have running water and shower/toilet allready makes them superior to old housing (remember we are not discussing the housing of the nobility , but of the common people)
I'm sure there were no 'independent reporters' because those don't exist, but I am also sure that this was reported in a much more powerful medium -that of internet discussion groups where one can get real information in real time. Though I don't read Beijing discussion groups, the ones in South China are very open and quick to describe people's real situation.
If you can read Chinese ,check out baidu.com's "tieba" (discussion group) -it's unique in China in that you don't have to register in order to post. You can get all different kinds of information there (though some of it is flase of course)

 

I watched the Games in France , and i am very lucky one to left China before the Games.

I was so happy and wished to move to France before the Games was started. Cuz i know the whole country would be getting so crazy about everything , before i left china, i was already feeling there were " fake" happiness faces everything pretending the Games is coming and praying for the Earthquake people.

i never supported that china should had this Games, as china was not ready at all, from economically, humanly, organizationally , and most important was freedom for public media...etc.

When there were lots of welcoming signs of the Olympics everywhere on the streets and the central government was putting great deal of money on the Games, i could see were people were complaining about the incresing price of cost of living . people were wondering of were anything food they can still afford for living ...

There are too much fake nice faces showing in the whole country that people are happy which indeed they suffering like hell , the worryings has never stopped to any of them expected the those rich government workers / officers .