Founding Fathers and Religion...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Jimbee68, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Jimbee68

    Jimbee68 Member

    Partly a rhetorical question, but a serious question too (since I am just learning these things myself), to the religious members on these boards. If the establishment clause to the US Constitution is of such minimal importance, why is it the opening words, to very first amendment, to a document we call the Bill of Rights?

    OK, maybe I have got at least some of you thinking. Second question. If our founding fathers were so gungho about religion, esp. in public policy, why did they say so many things we today would call antireligious? Here, you can read some of them yourselves: 35 Founding Father Quotes Conservative Christians Will Hate

    I do have to make an important distinction here. Our founding fathers certainly were not antireligion. I know I am not. As I said before, I think religion can have a very positive effect in people's lives. They were anti-ORGANIZED and established religion.

    I know I am too. I believe in God, and still consider myself a relative Catholic. But I don't believe I am justified in imposing my beliefs (which are constantly evolving anyways) on others.

    And remember, my questions are not just rhetorical. I really want people to justify their beliefs. After all, I could be wrong...

    :) :) :)
  2. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

    Not sure they were anti organized religion, just critical. They cared about it being seperated from secular state issues/government which is a subtilely different thing than being anti organized religion ;)
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  3. Noserider

    Noserider Ditzy Surfer Girl

    Religion is rigid; the Constitution is fluid. Unlike religion, the Constitution can be amended to always stay current with the times. I think the Founding Fathers were smart enough to understand this, hence why secularized government and religious institutions are kept separate.

    Doesn't mean they had anything against religion in the personal lives of Americans though.
    scratcho likes this.
  4. wilsjane

    wilsjane Member

    Their is a simple answer. Since all religions believe that their is only one god (I know that he has a few helpers in the case of Muslim belief). It stands to reason that the only differences in religions is how us mere earthlings worship the almighty. Many people won't agree with my hypothesis, since it would destroy their reasoning for religious wars. Perhaps these people think that the roman catholic god and protestant gods are busy throwing bibles at each other, while Allah is building a few bombs. I suppose that it could give a whole new concept on thunder storms though.
  5. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman ShamaLamaDingDong

    The founding fathers modeled the Bill of Rights after the 10 Commandments. Being that there were 10 steadfast rules of law that protected the individual from governmental oppression.

    They did not do it this way because the Founders themselves were religious, they did it because a majority of their fellow citizens were Christian. And they wanted to model their new nation for individual prosperity, and what better way to do it by assimilating the Bill of Rights and constitution after the holy word of God?

    The founding fathers were not Christian, nor were they very religious, they were Deists. Yet they realized that politics is downstream from culture. If you influence the culture, the policies will be affected the way you shape the culture.
  6. tumbling.dice

    tumbling.dice I Am Only An Egg Lifetime Supporter HipForums Supporter


    The founders had nothing to do with it, it was all the handywork of James Madison. And he didn't propose 10 additions to the constitution he proposed 12; only 10 were ratified by the states. They had nothing to do with the 10 commandments but were instead modeled after the Virginia Declaration Of Rights, the English Bill Of Rights and the Magna Carta.
  7. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

    The founding fathers were religious, the Indians have their own. :p
  8. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

    The idea of the 10 commandments being a moral code is laughable considering all they ignore. But they do seem OK with no rights for women and children being molested so perhaps they work for the current Republican party.

    scratcho and Everythinggirl like this.
  9. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

    I thought the founding fathers were all into the illuminati stuff and templar knights
  10. TheGhost

    TheGhost Auuhhhhmm ...

    Wrong. Religion can be interpreted (it always IS, in fact) and so shaped, moulded, transformed. As can the law. The law can be interpreted, circumvented, perverted. As can religion.

    The second amendment still maintains that an armed militia is necessary in 2017.
    Asmodean likes this.
  11. Noserider

    Noserider Ditzy Surfer Girl

    Religion can be misinterpreted.

    And an armed militia is always necessary. But that's not what this thread is about.
  12. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    The founding fathers were a mixed
    Many of the Founding Fathers were heavily influenced by Deism that disregarded some or all of the features commonly regarded as orthodox Christian. These would include Thomas Paine ( not a Christian in any sense), and Ethan Allen. James Madison, James Monroe and Ben Franklin, nominally Episcopalians, and Thomas Jefferson, were also Deists, though admirers of Jesus, and Washington was a Christian Deist, heavily influenced by Enlightenment rationalism. Adams was a conservative unitarian. The Deist influence can be seen in their preferred terminology for the Divine:"Nature's God", Providence, and the Creator. Samuel Adams and John Jay were Christian Calvinists, and Patrick Henry was an evangelical Christian who passed out bibles door-to-door. One signer of the Declaration of Independence, Charles Carroll of Carrolton, was a Roam Catholic. In other words, a mixed bag, but liberal by today's standards. Overlapping this was the membership of some founding fathers in Freemasonry--not a religion but dedicated to some Enlightenment ideals. Of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, at least nine appear to have been Freemasons, including John Hancock, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Paine. George Washington was a famous Freemason. As for the Templar and Illuminati connection, that is the stuff of legend surrounding the secret Freemason society.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
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  13. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    Not all were Christian. (See above). As anyone with more than five brain cells would know, women, African-Americans and ethnic minorities didn't participate in signing the Declaration of Independence and the Constitutional Convention because folks back then were even more racist and sexist than they are today. For the times, though, all of the founding fathers were relatively rational, high minded people, unlike certain white nationalist pond scum who pollute the country today with their racist delusions, tweets and posts. Special thanks to Polish allies Casimir Pulaski, Tadeusz Kosciuszko, and the other fourteen Polish officers who helped. None were Nazis or FSB. Good for them! None were Polish nationalists, since that didn't exist at the time. Black Robers helped out from the pulpit before and during the Revolution. Observant Jews who also helped include Mordecai Sheftali the highest-ranking Jewish officer who provided money for the American cause ; Haym Salomon, financier, broker and immigrant from Poland helped create America’s first semi-central bank and advised Alexander Hamilton on the building of America’s financial system. Rabbi Gershom Mendes Seixas, who organized prayers for the Americans in the revolution; Jonas Phillips. who served in the Militia and became America’s first religious-liberty activist.; and Jacob Mordecai, a Philadelphia rifleman who supplied the Continental Army as a clerk to Washington’s Jewish quartermaster. Of course Crispus Atticus, the first patriot who was killed in the revolutionary war, was African-American. Templar involvement is fantasy.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  14. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    Most blacks were slaves and Jews made up fewer than 1% of the population, so your point about "very few " of them being"in the scenario" is stupid and pointless. The founding fathers were patriots, not white nationalists. Nationalism is " a sentiment based on common cultural characteristics that binds a population and often produces a policy of national independence or separatism." nationalism Nationalism and patriotism are often confused, but the former is a mass movement based on cultural or ethnic consciousness (love of nationality), and the latter is based on love of country. (Martha and Richard Cottam, Nationalism and Politics. The system that the founding fathers introduced was not nationalist but one "dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal". No widespread sentiment of nationalism can be identified among the Poles until the 1830 November uprising, or at the earliest, the Second Partition of 1792. Pulaski and Kosciuszko were patriots fighting to protect the Polish-Lituanian Commonwealth from Russian domination. Only a fanatic would ascribe Polish nationalism to the major factors influencing the founding fathers of the United States. "Very few" Poles were "in the scenario". And those are the facts, regardless of pseudo-scientific racist revisionism by ignorant nutjobs. BTW, are you Polish? Nazi ideology regarded Poles as "subhuman", fit only to serve the master race.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
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  15. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    Crispus Attucks, Peter Salem, Prince Estabrook , Salem Poor, Barzillai Lew, Blaney Grusha, Titus Coburn, Alexander Ames, Cato Howe, and Baron Closen were all black.
    The 1st Rhode Island Regiment had 140 blacks.

    Blacks served in militias and the colonial and state navies.
    Okiefreak likes this.
  16. Maccabee

    Maccabee Luke 22:35-38

    Evidence for any of tgis?
  17. tumbling.dice

    tumbling.dice I Am Only An Egg Lifetime Supporter HipForums Supporter

    Mac, meet Baldnbare. I was kinda hoping you two would cross paths.
  18. Maccabee

    Maccabee Luke 22:35-38

    What have I stumbled upon?
  19. Maccabee

    Maccabee Luke 22:35-38

    We would've found some other means. The slave trade was entirely unnecessary from the get go.
  20. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    I suspect he might have been sarcastic. I agree with you that the slave trade was entirely unnecessary, but it was important to the development of the exploitative southern plantation culture, which was unnecessary.
  21. Noserider

    Noserider Ditzy Surfer Girl

    Oh Jesus...

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