For guys who are on some form of estrogen...l

Hi GayTony –

If your primary concern is to not lose your hair to male pattern baldness, I have some suggestions. I too had the same concern and took action so I know a few things on this subject. (I am also a scientist).

Option 1:
Start HRT (hormone replacement therapy) for male to female transsexual protocol.
Yes- taking estrogen with a testosterone blocker will very effectively stop your hair loss and partially reverse it. Almost as soon as you start HRT you will have: your brain feminized, experience breast nipple tenderness, boob breast development growth, and notice overall softer skin. Feminizing side effects also include wider hips with fat development, and a reduction of your stomach area pot belly fat. If you stay on HRT for a long time (many months); it will greatly decrease your muscle strength, make your skin less hairy, you balls will get smaller, seamen will get clearer, and eventually your penis will shrink. Soon after starting HRT your sex drive will actually increase then, as time goes on and you testosterone levels drop to nearly zero, your sex drive will plummet or become non-existent. Your sex drive will then eventually increase again, but not as high as before you were on HRT. Penis erections are usually still possible. You will have organisms again, but in a very different feminine way. Your brain will feminize becoming more emotional, empathetic, maternal, submissive, and requiring more willpower effort to make a decision. Your sexual orientation will not change. In the long term, your muscle strength will likely eventually decrease by 40 to 50 percent. I knew a male to female (MTF) transsexual that could bench press 160 pounds before HRT transition, and only 50 pounds after transition. This loss of strength will have a big effect your life style. Your whole body flesh will eventually become so soft it will resemble a bowl of Jell-O. You will have significant female boobs if you stay on HRT longer than a few months. HRT feminized males grow breast boobs, but your boobs will likely be smaller and more perfect than most biological female boobs.

If you are gay or Bi and have never taken estrogen before, be forewarned that you will have a fantastic experience shortly after you first take a high dose of estrogen (say 2mg). It will make you feel very profoundly pleasant, aware, emotional, feminine, good, and initially increase your sex drive. Brain feminization is the first effect of estrogen. Your brain waves will become much more active and it will become easier to learn new things (good for students). It has little brain effect on totally heterosexual men. However, for bisexual and gay men, it takes time to control these new feminine emotions. If you remain on HRT for many weeks, emotional instability and anxiety will occur. While taking HRT, it is recommended to have frequent submissive sex with Bi male(s) to promote your feminization process and emotional stability. This applies even if you are only taking HRT only for a few weeks with no intension of fully transitioning (becoming an MTF). It can be a long and complicated process getting used to these new feminine inward emotions. You should eventually adjust. Again, your sexual orientation and sexual identity will not really change, but will be rebooted and old habits will change.

For some people with gender dysphonia, thoughts of suicide can occur. These suicide thoughts usually disappear after their physical gender appearance starts to match their gender identity. This is why HRT usually benefits MTFs.

Details (fot HRToption1):
* feminization hormone - Oestradiol – I took 6 oestradiol pills (2mg per pill) per day. This is an estrogen.
* testosterone blocker - Cyproterone is better than spironolactone – I took 5 (50 mg per pill) Cyproterone pills per day.

Note: Do not overdose on-Cyproterone. This can cause problems and increase risks. Cyproterone is both more effective than spironolactone and you are much less likely to have to your balls surgically removed due to medical complications. Although you will be infertile while on HRT, as long as you still have your balls, you could potentially get off HRT and have biological kids.


Option 2:
Stop your testosterone from converting to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) with DHT blockers. DHT is what triggers / causes male pattern baldness and promotes other male hair growth on your skin. I the long term, this will not affect your overall testosterone level. Lowering DHT will also soften and feminize you skin. This will mostly affect only your skin and will not your muscle strength, bones, sex drive, or other male characteristics. This option should stop the progression of male pattern baldness.

Details:
DHT blocker - Dutasteride (Avodart) is more effective than Finasteride – I took 1 Dutasteride pill (0.5mg per pill) per day. Also, rub Minoxidil in the balding area of your hair. This is a topical DHT blocker. You can buy it cheaper generically at Wal-Mart (Equate).

Option 3:
Combination of options 1 and 2. First take (option 2) DHT blocker. Then start HRT (option 1) for about for about 2 months. Then stop HRT (option 2). The male pattern baldness will be stopped and partially reversed. If you are only on HRT for a short period of time, you will likely still pass as a male and your breast growth will be small. Stop earlier if breast growth becomes unacceptable. Your very small breasts will likely decrease in size after you stop HRT. You could supplement the DTH blocker with a very small amount estrogen (say 0.2 mg/day). This amount is too small to effect anything but your skin and brain and works well with DHT blockers. Then, stay on a DHT blocker indefinitely to prevent male pattern baldness from returning. A male can be on HRT a short time without having or wanting a sex change. Your body would still appear to be mostly physically male. You can stay male and go on HRT for a short time just because you want to become more feminized (and not lose your head hair). It would also make you look younger.

Options summary –

You do not need to get depressed losing your head hair to male pattern baldness. Using today’s technology, you do not have to lose your hair. You can choose the option that is best for you. However, time is not on your side. I suggest taking one of these options as soon as possible.

Since you are gay, short, thin, and a little bit flamboyant, a bottom, have a naturally high voice, you would likely MTF transition well (HRT option 1) and pass as a biological female. You said you ready to become a woman and be happy with the feminizing effects. Frequent sex while on HRT helps emotional stability and it appears you are already sexually active. You might even pass so well no one would know you were born male unless you wanted them to know. You also said no part of being a guy you like. If you have gender dysphonia, becoming a woman might be the best option (forever HRT option 1). However, sexual orientation and sexual identity are not the same. Do you really feel like you are a woman trapped in a male body? Do you really have a female sexual identity?

Becoming a woman also has social implications. As a woman, you will likely earn less money, be treated with less respect, become more emotional, empathetic, submissive, and have significantly less physical strength. It will also require more willpower effort to make decisions, and you will lose some independence. You will often need to reduce travel or go with someone to decrease your chances of being raped or mugged. Your friends and family may or may not accept your sex change. You could end up losing some friends and family members. Some might even hate you for changing your gender. On the other hand, you might also meet and make new friends.

I also know some feminized males that still identify themselves as male or gender queer effeminate emo skater boys even after years of thoroughly complete HRT body feminization. They have absolutely no intentions of ever stopping HRT. They often dress as boys with breast binding to hide their boobs. They look more like tall 14 year old pre-puberty boys (or gender queer female dykes). As boys, they have more freedom. Many Bi males, like myself, are attracted to feminized androgynous adult males regardless of their sexual identity. One advantage is that you could pass as either gender depending on your mood. You could even do drag queen shows as a participant. In any case, you would have no trouble finding plenty of Bi males that are attracted to you. You would likely attract even more males than before your HRT feminization. All of them would likely be bisexual.

However, you could also take option 3 (a DHT blocker indefinitely with time limited HRT), and prevent and partially reverse your hair loss due to male pattern baldness.

I myself chose a modified option 3 – Initially on HRT (option 1) for only 2 months while taking a daily DTH blocker Dutasteride pill and a topical DHT blocker Minoxidil. This was indefinitely followed by: taking: a Dutasteride pill daily, and a very small amount estrogen (0.2 mg/day), and by applying Minoxidil topically every day to my head hair. All my head hair came back and I like the only partial feminization while still being physically male. My skin is soft but I still have a good sex drive and muscle tone. I also use Eflora face cream to prevent beard growth or the need to shave my face. Yes, estrogen does feminize my brain to some extent. I really like this effect. I am a smooth gender queer versatile Bi guy. I am happy with the limited feminizing effects with all the advantages of still being a male. Yes, I have my head hair and will never lose it.

On a personal note, regardless of which option you choose, you are interesting and I would in general like to know more about you and what you decisions you make. To avoid going bald, time is not on your side. I suggest taking action on one of these options as soon as possible before you lose more hair, your bone structure changes even more, and your voice gets deeper.

 

Hi GayTony –

If your primary concern is to not lose your hair to male pattern baldness, I have some suggestions. I too had the same concern and took action so I know a few things on this subject. (I am also a scientist).

Option 1:
Start HRT (hormone replacement therapy) for male to female transsexual protocol.
Yes- taking estrogen with a testosterone blocker will very effectively stop your hair loss and partially reverse it. Almost as soon as you start HRT you will have: your brain feminized, experience breast nipple tenderness, boob breast development growth, and notice overall softer skin. Feminizing side effects also include wider hips with fat development, and a reduction of your stomach area pot belly fat. If you stay on HRT for a long time (many months); it will greatly decrease your muscle strength, make your skin less hairy, you balls will get smaller, seamen will get clearer, and eventually your penis will shrink. Soon after starting HRT your sex drive will actually increase then, as time goes on and you testosterone levels drop to nearly zero, your sex drive will plummet or become non-existent. Your sex drive will then eventually increase again, but not as high as before you were on HRT. Penis erections are usually still possible. You will have organisms again, but in a very different feminine way. Your brain will feminize becoming more emotional, empathetic, maternal, submissive, and requiring more willpower effort to make a decision. Your sexual orientation will not change. In the long term, your muscle strength will likely eventually decrease by 40 to 50 percent. I knew a male to female (MTF) transsexual that could bench press 160 pounds before HRT transition, and only 50 pounds after transition. This loss of strength will have a big effect your life style. Your whole body flesh will eventually become so soft it will resemble a bowl of Jell-O. You will have significant female boobs if you stay on HRT longer than a few months. HRT feminized males grow breast boobs, but your boobs will likely be smaller and more perfect than most biological female boobs.

If you are gay or Bi and have never taken estrogen before, be forewarned that you will have a fantastic experience shortly after you first take a high dose of estrogen (say 2mg). It will make you feel very profoundly pleasant, aware, emotional, feminine, good, and initially increase your sex drive. Brain feminization is the first effect of estrogen. Your brain waves will become much more active and it will become easier to learn new things (good for students). It has little brain effect on totally heterosexual men. However, for bisexual and gay men, it takes time to control these new feminine emotions. If you remain on HRT for many weeks, emotional instability and anxiety will occur. While taking HRT, it is recommended to have frequent submissive sex with Bi male(s) to promote your feminization process and emotional stability. This applies even if you are only taking HRT only for a few weeks with no intension of fully transitioning (becoming an MTF). It can be a long and complicated process getting used to these new feminine inward emotions. You should eventually adjust. Again, your sexual orientation and sexual identity will not really change, but will be rebooted and old habits will change.

For some people with gender dysphonia, thoughts of suicide can occur. These suicide thoughts usually disappear after their physical gender appearance starts to match their gender identity. This is why HRT usually benefits MTFs.

Details (fot HRToption1):
* feminization hormone - Oestradiol – I took 6 oestradiol pills (2mg per pill) per day. This is an estrogen.
* testosterone blocker - Cyproterone is better than spironolactone – I took 5 (50 mg per pill) Cyproterone pills per day.

Note: Do not overdose on-Cyproterone. This can cause problems and increase risks. Cyproterone is both more effective than spironolactone and you are much less likely to have to your balls surgically removed due to medical complications. Although you will be infertile while on HRT, as long as you still have your balls, you could potentially get off HRT and have biological kids.


Option 2:
Stop your testosterone from converting to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) with DHT blockers. DHT is what triggers / causes male pattern baldness and promotes other male hair growth on your skin. I the long term, this will not affect your overall testosterone level. Lowering DHT will also soften and feminize you skin. This will mostly affect only your skin and will not your muscle strength, bones, sex drive, or other male characteristics. This option should stop the progression of male pattern baldness.

Details:
DHT blocker - Dutasteride (Avodart) is more effective than Finasteride – I took 1 Dutasteride pill (0.5mg per pill) per day. Also, rub Minoxidil in the balding area of your hair. This is a topical DHT blocker. You can buy it cheaper generically at Wal-Mart (Equate).

Option 3:
Combination of options 1 and 2. First take (option 2) DHT blocker. Then start HRT (option 1) for about for about 2 months. Then stop HRT (option 2). The male pattern baldness will be stopped and partially reversed. If you are only on HRT for a short period of time, you will likely still pass as a male and your breast growth will be small. Stop earlier if breast growth becomes unacceptable. Your very small breasts will likely decrease in size after you stop HRT. You could supplement the DTH blocker with a very small amount estrogen (say 0.2 mg/day). This amount is too small to effect anything but your skin and brain and works well with DHT blockers. Then, stay on a DHT blocker indefinitely to prevent male pattern baldness from returning. A male can be on HRT a short time without having or wanting a sex change. Your body would still appear to be mostly physically male. You can stay male and go on HRT for a short time just because you want to become more feminized (and not lose your head hair). It would also make you look younger.

Options summary –

You do not need to get depressed losing your head hair to male pattern baldness. Using today’s technology, you do not have to lose your hair. You can choose the option that is best for you. However, time is not on your side. I suggest taking one of these options as soon as possible.

Since you are gay, short, thin, and a little bit flamboyant, a bottom, have a naturally high voice, you would likely MTF transition well (HRT option 1) and pass as a biological female. You said you ready to become a woman and be happy with the feminizing effects. Frequent sex while on HRT helps emotional stability and it appears you are already sexually active. You might even pass so well no one would know you were born male unless you wanted them to know. You also said no part of being a guy you like. If you have gender dysphonia, becoming a woman might be the best option (forever HRT option 1). However, sexual orientation and sexual identity are not the same. Do you really feel like you are a woman trapped in a male body? Do you really have a female sexual identity?

Becoming a woman also has social implications. As a woman, you will likely earn less money, be treated with less respect, become more emotional, empathetic, submissive, and have significantly less physical strength. It will also require more willpower effort to make decisions, and you will lose some independence. You will often need to reduce travel or go with someone to decrease your chances of being raped or mugged. Your friends and family may or may not accept your sex change. You could end up losing some friends and family members. Some might even hate you for changing your gender. On the other hand, you might also meet and make new friends.

I also know some feminized males that still identify themselves as male or gender queer effeminate emo skater boys even after years of thoroughly complete HRT body feminization. They have absolutely no intentions of ever stopping HRT. They often dress as boys with breast binding to hide their boobs. They look more like tall 14 year old pre-puberty boys (or gender queer female dykes). As boys, they have more freedom. Many Bi males, like myself, are attracted to feminized androgynous adult males regardless of their sexual identity. One advantage is that you could pass as either gender depending on your mood. You could even do drag queen shows as a participant. In any case, you would have no trouble finding plenty of Bi males that are attracted to you. You would likely attract even more males than before your HRT feminization. All of them would likely be bisexual.

However, you could also take option 3 (a DHT blocker indefinitely with time limited HRT), and prevent and partially reverse your hair loss due to male pattern baldness.

I myself chose a modified option 3 – Initially on HRT (option 1) for only 2 months while taking a daily DTH blocker Dutasteride pill and a topical DHT blocker Minoxidil. This was indefinitely followed by: taking: a Dutasteride pill daily, and a very small amount estrogen (0.2 mg/day), and by applying Minoxidil topically every day to my head hair. All my head hair came back and I like the only partial feminization while still being physically male. My skin is soft but I still have a good sex drive and muscle tone. I also use Eflora face cream to prevent beard growth or the need to shave my face. Yes, estrogen does feminize my brain to some extent. I really like this effect. I am a smooth gender queer versatile Bi guy. I am happy with the limited feminizing effects with all the advantages of still being a male. Yes, I have my head hair and will never lose it.

On a personal note, regardless of which option you choose, you are interesting and I would in general like to know more about you and what you decisions you make. To avoid going bald, time is not on your side. I suggest taking action on one of these options as soon as possible before you lose more hair, your bone structure changes even more, and your voice gets deeper.

 

Hi GayTony –

If your primary concern is to not lose your hair to male pattern baldness, I have some suggestions. I too had the same concern and took action so I know a few things on this subject. (I am also a scientist).

Option 1:
Start HRT (hormone replacement therapy) for male to female transsexual protocol.
Yes- taking estrogen with a testosterone blocker will very effectively stop your hair loss and partially reverse it. Almost as soon as you start HRT you will have: your brain feminized, experience breast nipple tenderness, boob breast development growth, and notice overall softer skin. Feminizing side effects also include wider hips with fat development, and a reduction of your stomach area pot belly fat. If you stay on HRT for a long time (many months); it will greatly decrease your muscle strength, make your skin less hairy, you balls will get smaller, seamen will get clearer, and eventually your penis will shrink. Soon after starting HRT your sex drive will actually increase then, as time goes on and you testosterone levels drop to nearly zero, your sex drive will plummet or become non-existent. Your sex drive will then eventually increase again, but not as high as before you were on HRT. Penis erections are usually still possible. You will have organisms again, but in a very different feminine way. Your brain will feminize becoming more emotional, empathetic, maternal, submissive, and requiring more willpower effort to make a decision. Your sexual orientation will not change. In the long term, your muscle strength will likely eventually decrease by 40 to 50 percent. I knew a male to female (MTF) transsexual that could bench press 160 pounds before HRT transition, and only 50 pounds after transition. This loss of strength will have a big effect your life style. Your whole body flesh will eventually become so soft it will resemble a bowl of Jell-O. You will have significant female boobs if you stay on HRT longer than a few months. HRT feminized males grow breast boobs, but your boobs will likely be smaller and more perfect than most biological female boobs.

If you are gay or Bi and have never taken estrogen before, be forewarned that you will have a fantastic experience shortly after you first take a high dose of estrogen (say 2mg). It will make you feel very profoundly pleasant, aware, emotional, feminine, good, and initially increase your sex drive. Brain feminization is the first effect of estrogen. Your brain waves will become much more active and it will become easier to learn new things (good for students). It has little brain effect on totally heterosexual men. However, for bisexual and gay men, it takes time to control these new feminine emotions. If you remain on HRT for many weeks, emotional instability and anxiety will occur. While taking HRT, it is recommended to have frequent submissive sex with Bi male(s) to promote your feminization process and emotional stability. This applies even if you are only taking HRT only for a few weeks with no intension of fully transitioning (becoming an MTF). It can be a long and complicated process getting used to these new feminine inward emotions. You should eventually adjust. Again, your sexual orientation and sexual identity will not really change, but will be rebooted and old habits will change.

For some people with gender dysphonia, thoughts of suicide can occur. These suicide thoughts usually disappear after their physical gender appearance starts to match their gender identity. This is why HRT usually benefits MTFs.

Details (fot HRToption1):
* feminization hormone - Oestradiol – I took 6 oestradiol pills (2mg per pill) per day. This is an estrogen.
* testosterone blocker - Cyproterone is better than spironolactone – I took 5 (50 mg per pill) Cyproterone pills per day.

Note: Do not overdose on-Cyproterone. This can cause problems and increase risks. Cyproterone is both more effective than spironolactone and you are much less likely to have to your balls surgically removed due to medical complications. Although you will be infertile while on HRT, as long as you still have your balls, you could potentially get off HRT and have biological kids.


Option 2:
Stop your testosterone from converting to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) with DHT blockers. DHT is what triggers / causes male pattern baldness and promotes other male hair growth on your skin. I the long term, this will not affect your overall testosterone level. Lowering DHT will also soften and feminize you skin. This will mostly affect only your skin and will not your muscle strength, bones, sex drive, or other male characteristics. This option should stop the progression of male pattern baldness.

Details:
DHT blocker - Dutasteride (Avodart) is more effective than Finasteride – I took 1 Dutasteride pill (0.5mg per pill) per day. Also, rub Minoxidil in the balding area of your hair. This is a topical DHT blocker. You can buy it cheaper generically at Wal-Mart (Equate).

Option 3:
Combination of options 1 and 2. First take (option 2) DHT blocker. Then start HRT (option 1) for about for about 2 months. Then stop HRT (option 2). The male pattern baldness will be stopped and partially reversed. If you are only on HRT for a short period of time, you will likely still pass as a male and your breast growth will be small. Stop earlier if breast growth becomes unacceptable. Your very small breasts will likely decrease in size after you stop HRT. You could supplement the DTH blocker with a very small amount estrogen (say 0.2 mg/day). This amount is too small to effect anything but your skin and brain and works well with DHT blockers. Then, stay on a DHT blocker indefinitely to prevent male pattern baldness from returning. A male can be on HRT a short time without having or wanting a sex change. Your body would still appear to be mostly physically male. You can stay male and go on HRT for a short time just because you want to become more feminized (and not lose your head hair). It would also make you look younger.

Options summary –

You do not need to get depressed losing your head hair to male pattern baldness. Using today’s technology, you do not have to lose your hair. You can choose the option that is best for you. However, time is not on your side. I suggest taking one of these options as soon as possible.

Since you are gay, short, thin, and a little bit flamboyant, a bottom, have a naturally high voice, you would likely MTF transition well (HRT option 1) and pass as a biological female. You said you ready to become a woman and be happy with the feminizing effects. Frequent sex while on HRT helps emotional stability and it appears you are already sexually active. You might even pass so well no one would know you were born male unless you wanted them to know. You also said no part of being a guy you like. If you have gender dysphonia, becoming a woman might be the best option (forever HRT option 1). However, sexual orientation and sexual identity are not the same. Do you really feel like you are a woman trapped in a male body? Do you really have a female sexual identity?

Becoming a woman also has social implications. As a woman, you will likely earn less money, be treated with less respect, become more emotional, empathetic, submissive, and have significantly less physical strength. It will also require more willpower effort to make decisions, and you will lose some independence. You will often need to reduce travel or go with someone to decrease your chances of being raped or mugged. Your friends and family may or may not accept your sex change. You could end up losing some friends and family members. Some might even hate you for changing your gender. On the other hand, you might also meet and make new friends.

I also know some feminized males that still identify themselves as male or gender queer effeminate emo skater boys even after years of thoroughly complete HRT body feminization. They have absolutely no intentions of ever stopping HRT. They often dress as boys with breast binding to hide their boobs. They look more like tall 14 year old pre-puberty boys (or gender queer female dykes). As boys, they have more freedom. Many Bi males, like myself, are attracted to feminized androgynous adult males regardless of their sexual identity. One advantage is that you could pass as either gender depending on your mood. You could even do drag queen shows as a participant. In any case, you would have no trouble finding plenty of Bi males that are attracted to you. You would likely attract even more males than before your HRT feminization. All of them would likely be bisexual.

However, you could also take option 3 (a DHT blocker indefinitely with time limited HRT), and prevent and partially reverse your hair loss due to male pattern baldness.

I myself chose a modified option 3 – Initially on HRT (option 1) for only 2 months while taking a daily DTH blocker Dutasteride pill and a topical DHT blocker Minoxidil. This was indefinitely followed by: taking: a Dutasteride pill daily, and a very small amount estrogen (0.2 mg/day), and by applying Minoxidil topically every day to my head hair. All my head hair came back and I like the only partial feminization while still being physically male. My skin is soft but I still have a good sex drive and muscle tone. I also use Eflora face cream to prevent beard growth or the need to shave my face. Yes, estrogen does feminize my brain to some extent. I really like this effect. I am a smooth gender queer versatile Bi guy. I am happy with the limited feminizing effects with all the advantages of still being a male. Yes, I have my head hair and will never lose it.

On a personal note, regardless of which option you choose, you are interesting and I would in general like to know more about you and what you decisions you make. To avoid going bald, time is not on your side. I suggest taking action on one of these options as soon as possible before you lose more hair, your bone structure changes even more, and your voice gets deeper.

 

This is an old post, so I'm not sure the OP is still around to read this. But maybe it wil help someone else. I'll try to condense my experience to save time and space. I'm a straight male who started taking a drug for enlarged prostate. I'm of average height and a bit less than average weight. I began experiencing some side effects of the drug, including breast growth. Not a lot, but it was noticable. I found it to be pretty erotic. A turn on. But the growth didn't continue. The desire for more breast growth moved me to start taking estrogen. Being single and not in a serious relationship, I wasn't concerned with having to explain any physical changes to anyone. I started seeing changes within 10 days of starting the estrogen. I was taking 6mg a day. My areolas and nipples were getting bigger and darker, and there was a firm growth in my breasts. I continued the estrogen, and ended up where I am today, approximately 2 years later, still taking it, and still seeing breast growth, but at a much slower rate. Yes, I've experienced other changes, slightly bigger hips and butt, but the breast growth has been unbelieveable. I was told I have a sensitivity to it, which caused the very unusual amount of breast growth. It has taken some time and thick skin, but I'm now used to the looks I get when I'm out in public. I don't wear a bra and no longer try to hide my breasts (which would be impossible) so they stick out (like construction cones) and bounce and jiggle. They are larger than most women's. Let me add, estrogen will not change your voice. And I've had no changes in my facial or body hair growth. I've heard some do, but I haven't. I can still get an erection, it just takes longer, and I still orgasm. So, before anyone starts taking estrogen for hair loss or to control baldness, be aware of the other changes that will happen. Some of them will go away if you stop taking it, but sterility and breast growth are permanent.

 

I was on Hormone shots when I lived in L.A. for 7 years. It did wonders. If I could find an underground way to get them here in Toronto, like I did in Calif' I'd be all over that!