For guys who are on some form of estrogen...l

You are right about that. In most cases of intersex, female is the gender chosen for the child. I didn't really know anything about intersex conditions until I found out about my own condition. But I have since discovered that most females with the condition I have (CAH) were brought up as males, due to the masculinised genitalia at birth. It is now recommended that all XX babies with this condition are brought up as females. But back in the days when I was born, I guess doctors just thought it was easier to bring babies like that up as males. Too late for me, but at least most girls with this today will be spared the cruel fate that I, and other girls like me had to endure. And you're right about the first memories. For as long as I can remember, I identified as female. It always baffled and hurt me why people treated me as a male.

Yes, I can definitely understand why transwomen don't disclose their medical history to partners. For one, it could be dangerous to do so, and also, if disclosure is going to make people see you as someone you're not, then you're not going to want to do it. I don't disclose my intersex condition to people I meet, so why should transpeople be any different? I know a lot of trans people don't even like the 'trans' label, because they feel it binds them to a gender which they've never identified as. So if you yourself have issues with the trans label, why would you refer yourself as that to other people? Besides, sex and gender aren't the same thing. Just because those things are mostly in harmony with each other for most people, doesnt mean thats an absolute. I should also add, that there are many other chromosomal setups than just the XX/XY ones that most people think are the only ones that exist. And it is also possible for males to be XX and females to be XY. This is a chromosomal 'defect' but certainly enough to show that those chromosomes alone are not enough to establish someone's gender.

Gender does have a neurological basis, this is a cast iron medical fact. This being the case, even without the evidence, I can't fathom why some find it so hard to believe that the neurology of a person could be at odds with their physical anatomy. After all, there are plenty of other disabilities and 'abnormalities' that people are born with. People are just quick to judge and criticise things they dont understand, I guess.

 

@FreshDacre: I've lived a pretty good life so far despite all of this. I get out and do things with friends and continue to work and try not to let it get me down too much. I'm a pretty social person, so people are starting to call me and leave me messages wondering if I'm alright, now that I really don't leave the house as of late. It's not like I haven't tried to suppress these thoughts and get on with my life. Believe me, I have. You're obviously not very informed about things like this, so you should probably only observe us with an open mind and do a little more research about it, before going "YOU'RE WEIRD LOL, GOD THINKS SO, TOO!" Honestly. And the whole thing about lying? It's not exactly lying to me. I'd rather be known as just a girl, rather than a trans girl, but that's impossible for the people whom I already know to understand or even accept. My parents don't even know I'm at least gay. They know how feminine I am, and I've always been pretty feminine, but very much so over the past five years, to the point where whenever I see my father, he makes a comment about my long hair, or ponytail, or complains I'm wearing a little bit of makeup. It's not that big of a deal, but for some it's impossible to wrap their heads around. They'll never be able to understand, unless they had an experience like this themselves, or had a kid who was able to come out to them and a lot of time passed so they'd be used to it. There are so many ignorant people I've already had to deal with about this issue, mostly people who I thought were my friends. One of my male friends who supposedly had a gender problem before he "found god", said, "But you've never even crossdressed! You're definitely not a woman!". I tried explaining it's not an apparel issue as it is an issue with my own body. He didn't understand. So, FreshDacre, I don't expect you to understand anything about this, because it seems all of this is new to you. I at least ask you keep an open mind and really think about what you're saying before saying it here. Almost everything you've said it at least a little offending one way or another.

And for the record, I don't believe in god.

 

Looking back through today's posts, also for the record estrogen will in fact do nothing for your voice in terms of making it higher. MtF must practice their voice to get it into a more feminine range. If you start taking estrogen or anti-androgens before puberty really begins it'll stop it from deepening, but once the vocal chords have been stretched and the voice deepens they're stuck that way.

 

Thankfully my voice isn't deep at all, it's abnormally high and soft. As long as it stays that way, it shouldn't interfere with my work, but my friend who's a voice actor told me a kid who was taking hormones in private had his voice mess up a lot due to it, and he was told never to come into the studio sounding like that again. I'm not sure what the deal was with that, but it frightens me to think I could lose all continuous work I have now because of it.

 

Also remember, pitch alone doesn't differentiate between a man and woman's voice, there are other things that can be much more important, including resonance and speech pattern, how words are pronounced themselves ect in the end make a very large difference. Hence why there are women with very deep voices who still sound feminine.

 

That's what a lot of MtF have told me... I'm pretty sure I can pass if I just used my own voice with a female resonance, and a little more practice of course. As long as I'm able to do regular voices for work, I can put that fear to rest. I'm going to certainly look into it some more, and ask my psychiatrist who seems to know most of these things.

 

TheMadcapSyd is right. Which is why for transwoman, the voice breaking is one of the biggest handicaps that need to be overcome. (and for me too) Even if you can physically 'pass', a male voice is one of the things that can still give you away. Adjusting the pitch on it's own will not work. Which is why a gay man with a high effeminate voice usually still sounds male, and a woman with a deep voice still sounds female. Resonance and speech pattern are way more important than pitch. When the voice breaks, it is not just the pitch which is effected. Which is why that is one of the most damaging aspects of the male puberty.

Although intersex, I have in effect, gone through the male version of puberty as well. And the voice breaking is one of the hardest things to overcome, it can feel hugely debilitating. Hearing a male voice coming out of my mouth was always a total mindfuck to me, it wasn't like I was speaking in my own voice. Its a horrible feeling. The effects of the male puberty are a lot more damaging to the transperson's body than the female equivelant. For transwomen at least, puberty blockers are pretty much essential to making 'transition' at least physically, far easier, than if its left till after puberty.

 

Also, interesting article:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

 

That's the findings from the first scientific test to see if there was a biological/neurological basis for transpeople feeling they are the opposite sex. A second similar slightly more extensive test has been carried out since then, and the results were the same. Although one MTF had neuron numbers still in the male range.

Upon discovery of my intersex condition, I've often wondered if it's my genetics, or my brain set up which made me self identify as female. I'd say it's the latter, although being mostly female genetically, I probably had a far higher chance of having a female brain set-up than a genetic male. So I think it's a combination of both things in my case.

 

From what you're told me about your condition, it seems like it could be a combination of both... really makes me wonder why I'm this way too. The only thing odd I can think of is, I appeared female in the ultrasound (which is sort of why my birth name is Casey, at least my mother told me years ago)

Well, on Tuesday I'll be seeing a gender therapist and see where that goes. She's pretty popular among trans people in the Connecticut area, so hopefully she'll be able to pinpoint exactly what's up with my strange little brain =P

 

Well, I've always felt I was born a girl on the inside. I just couldn't explain why that was. A few years ago, I started doing research to see if there was any science behind why I feel this way. Not to ''prove'' I was born this way, I've always known I was, I guess I just wanted some answers. It is now known that some genetic males who identify as female do have brain matter of the female sex rather than the male sex. (and vice versa for genetic females who identify as male) Although the research has only been carried out on a small scale, it is pretty conclusive that for some transpeople at least, they are literally a different sex neurologically to the one suggested by outer physical sex alone. It's also established as something a person is certainly born with, as it is known that brain sex is there from birth, and unlike outer physical sex anatomy, cannot be changed.

The only thing which hasn't been concretely established, is the reason why this happens. The most common theory amongst scientists in the field, is that the brain is starved of (or over flooded with) certain hormones during the early foetal stage, so while the body develops in a masculine way, the brain does not recieve the necessary hormonal 'triggers' it needs to develop as male, and so develops as female instead. The opposite of this process is thought of as being behind genetic females ending up with masculine brains. In simple terms, the body develops as a different sex from that of the brain. So the much used term from some transpeople that they feel 'trapped in the wrong body' in some cases at least, is very literal in it's meaning.

I think if I'd known I was physically intersex a lot earlier, and not done the research into trans conditions, I would have said it was all my genetics that made me ''feel'' female on the inside. I think the only thing my female genetics did, was make the fact I'd be born with a female brain a lot more likely than if I'd been a mainly genetic male. So in my case, I think it's a combination of both factors as to why I've always identified as female. The 'trans' condition is almost certainly a freak physical defect which only occurs in a small amount of people, and which develops in the womb. I think what the brain research has also shown, is that some trans people are just another example of intersex. It's just that transpeople's intersex conditions cannot be seen from birth.

Good luck on Tuesday! It was 3 years from when I first told my doctor about feeling female, to when I finally was sent to a gender specialist, which is horrific really. Hope it works out a lot better for you, than it did for me. xD

 

That's really interesting... I really want to know exactly why this happens, but I'm definitely no scientist =P

And why was it really horrific? This therapist seems extremely understanding and supportive of trans people... not questioning everything that makes us "feel" this way... I say "feel" since it's more an urge or inclination. *shrugs*

I'll post back how it goes. I'm really looking forward to finally being evaluated by an understanding professional.

 

I'm not a scientist either, but I have read about scientific research into this condition. I have to stress however, that not every person labelled 'trans' comes under the results of that scientific research. The 'trans' umbrella actually contains many different types of people, and that research is by no means an absolute for every person labelled 'trans', either by themselves, or by other people. Some trans people though, are born with a brain/body mismatch. This much has been established by the research already conducted.

I meant it was horrific that I had to wait 3 years from first telling my doctor I felt female, to being sent to a gender sepcialist. I certainly had practically non-existent support, or understanding for most of the time Ive been in the system. I didnt mean there was anything horrific about how you've been treated.

I don't think I would describe how I feel as an 'urge' or an 'inclination'. Just a deep knowing of who I am, and how that went against what I was supposedly 'meant' to be.

 

Some science!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm

On one hand you got that study that shows transsexuals often have a longer version of some androgen gene that lowers testosterone absorption.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

Then you have that one that shows male to female transsexuals often have neuron numbers in certain parts of the brain closer to the female norm then the male.

So probably from the start, despite being told physically to develop male, our genes make our brain feel female, and the body is just a vehicle for the brain, it means nothing on its own.

And some more of the same but in the opposite direction for females to males.


Intersexuals is a different story though. It's a tougher concept there as with transsexuals generally the body is fully biologically one gender or the other, the brain just isn't matching up. Intersexuals though have physical characteristics of both genders, my guess would be something with hormone levels during development.

Hey could be worse though, we could've been born blind and deaf

 

The gene research is very much in it's infancy, and the research carried out into this has produced no firm answers yet. Scientists in the field are convinced a process which happens in utero causes transpeople's brains to develop in contrast to, rather than in harmony with, the physical outer sex. Though a concrete reason for why this occurs has still not been found. There is evidence to suggest however, that the brain recieves the wrong signals in the womb, and develops as opposite to the sex of the rest of the outer body. Although the brain and the body usually recieve the same signals to develop as a certain sex, they are actually different processes, and are triggered independently of each other.

There have been two scientific tests carried out (both in Holland, but a few years apart) in relation to brain sex and it's relevance to the trans condition. And they have been pretty conclusive in showing that some trans people have brain matter of the opposite sex to the one suggested by the outer physical sex alone. This is almost certainly something that trans people are born with, as no other external reason for this phenomena occurring could be found. So there is a bitter irony there when some people tell trans people to ''stay how you're born'', when neurologically they are the opposite sex to the one suggested by external organs on their own. The brain is a more important organ in your body than sex organs, and crucially it does determine gender. Or at least people's feelings about their physical sex.

Intersex people are usually biologically a mix of the two sexes. Although it is important to stress there is no such thing as a true "hermaphrodite'', were someone is 50% male, and 50% female biologically. In all cases of intersex, one of the sexes is more predominant than the other. Its usually a chromosomal and/or a hormonal defect which causes the body to develop physical characteristics of the sex opposite to the predominant one. In my case, my genetic setup is 90% - 95% female. But I have a hormonal defect which means my body overproduces androgens. This led to my genitalia being masculinsed at birth, and being brought up as ''male'' due to that. I also developed (unwanted) secondary male physical characteristics later in life due to mistreatment of my condition.

The fact that I, and most other intersexed people identify as one gender only, (indeed, all of the fellow intersex people I have spoken to, identify as one gender only) despite having biological characteristics of both sexes, adds further weight to the notion that gender does have a neurological basis. Coupled with the scientific evidence, I can't see how anyone can really argue against the fact that some trans people have a brain/body mismatch. And that trans people ''choose'' to be the way they are. Which has always been a ludicrous notion anyway. For people who feel trapped in the wrong body at least. Why would anyone choose such a hard life and ostrascision from society? It's always amazed me when idiots come out with that assertion.

However, gender does have a neurological basis in ALL people, not just trans people. It's only an issue in trans people, because their neurological gender is the opposite of the one suggested by born physical sex anatomy. So, my neurological gender is female. My genes just meant that was much more likely to be the case, I guess.

 

does anti androgen stops excessive hair growth in men

 

No, they'll slow down hair growth but any hair you have already you're basically stuck with, estrogen however generally does cause a reduction in body hair.

 

Will estrogen change my behavior? Will it make it more feminine?

 

not necessarily, but mega dosing might.

 

Hello. Please forgive the OT post and the revival of such an old thread, but I arrived here on this thread via the results of a pretty obscure Google search. And then became fascinated with the discussion, and with the person named Invisible Soul in particular. It's almost like we could be siblings or something.

I signed up to this forum specifically so I could message Invisible Soul somehow and say "Thank you; you're awesome," but then saw that they haven't posted since March. Does anybody know what happened? Thanks, and ... sorry if I bothered anybody.