For Christians or anyone else Interested in Paganism...

Heron, I must say I like your theory. I am sure we have or will meet at a festival or ritual. I would enjoy a long conversation with you.

Just for my two cents on the meaning of the word, "pagan". I tell everyone that it just means , "other". Trying to pin it down more than that just leads to useless arguments.

Regarding the compatability of xtian and pagan beliefs, I see no conflict unless you are a literalist. Jesus was at least a profuond teacher and a beautiful human. He would be welcome at my table any time. I differentiate between what very little we know of the teachings of Jesus, and the greedy folks who have used his name to pacify and controll the masses. The first i refer to as Jesus Energy, and the other...Jesus Brand TM....Beware the jesus brand! I honor the spirit of jesus as an emisary of light and love while i fear those who would preach fear and hate in his name.

Arguments with fundamentalists of any variety is a waste of breath since the arguers do not share a common set of "facts" to use as evidence in the argument. Few pagans or any informed person will take the king james version literally.
1) It was written to glorify the king.
2) It is an indirect translation!
The NT has no surviving copies in Aramaic, so there is no way to Know what Jesus spoke in his native tounge!
We now know many examples where the translation was just plain wrong.
If we must discuss scripture, at least lets take it from a version that more closely resembles the oldest sources in the original languages.


One last point is a favorite rant of mine. I believe that there is a rather natural duality in many ancient schools of thought. This duality has been called tantra and asceticism in some paths. Asceticism is essentially the belief that we can obtain enlightenment or union with the divine by denying the physical, while Tantra is the path by which we can obtain enlightenment by fully embracing the physical. In the mind/body/spirit connection, ultimate unity can occur.

In Christianity, shortly after the death of Christ, this same duality existed. A dominant tantric Christian sect of the time was known as the Gnostics. Paul (lets not get me started about him...) and his followers represented extreme ascetics. The ascetics asembled the NT from many writings of the time. There motives were political and self-serving and definitely not representitive of the whole of Christianity. The NT is just a legacy from the sexually repressed ascetics. The gnostics, like any other "nonbelievers" were cleansed. Since that time, the xtian faith has been woefully lopsided and keeps on cleansing those non-believers. I find my pagan path ever drawn nearer to what little i understand of gnostic practice and belief. Just for kicks, can our fundamentalist fellow imagine Mary Magdelin as the wife of Jesus, the prime apostle, and Jesus's partner in the ritual sex magic of his group? They would be following an ancient Jewish tradition that actually predates the Hebrew culture. This image of Christianity is just as well supported by the historical record. The only additional arguments for the other version of xtian belief are from their very own propaganda book. Christianity is not defined solely by a book written for a dead king by scribes who did not fully understan the language they were translating.

More Love!
Less Fear!

Jim

 

Nice Jim, I think you and I could have much to talk about.

You seem to know what you mean, and why.

I admire that in a persons answers.

Are you refering to Asherah and the fertility
temples to Ba'al? When you referenced the sex magic?

Keep in touch man, i think we "can hang" lol

 

Pardon me while I take a crack at this one. Not only am I Hellenic Pagan, Apollo is among my patrons, the principal other one being his mom Leto. First originally Apollo wasn't the Sun God. That would be Helios whom Apollo was confounded with later circa the fifth century BCE and onwards culminating in the way the Romans saw him after adopting his worship. Incidently the Greek version of his name has a 'n' on the end, Apollon, not Apollo.

Second Greek Religion, AKA Hellenismos in these modern nights, had very little in the way of dogma. The myths were often seen as allegorical, poetical, primitive stabs at truths that lay beyond the grasp of mere mortals but rarely if ever were they seen as gospel truth. Hellenismos left the mind unchained by dogma and free to sore to heights seldom reached.

The early Greek philosophers were among the first to suspect the Sun wasn't a chariot drawn by horses. Anaxagoras was chased out of Athens for thinking the Sun was burning chuck of rock but this was better treatment than more than a few forward thinkers got in the Middle Ages for their beliefs.

The Greeks also came up with early forms of such theories as the theory of evolution, that the universe was formed out of the condension of gases and of course the Atomic Theory. These same people still believed in the Gods, some almost fantically so, they just had less faith in Homer.

 

i've said it before: i'm totally convinced that if/when jesus (or "Jesus Energy") does "come back", we'll find Him at a festival bonfire somewhere, turning water into mead and joyously laughing, drumming and dancing with the rest of us "sinners", and having a marvelous time!

 

What happened to the debate?

 

OK, THIS would make a believer of me...

 

The God of the Old Testament states that there was no God formed before Him and there is no God formed after Him. He stated that He was alone and by Himself when He created the Earth. So where did your second God, come from?
Or does your belief not agree with the Old Testament?

 

If the god of the old testament was a deceiver as Heron suggested, would'nt you expect lies?

Jim

PS: Heron, regarding sex magic, i was speeking in generalities based on the practices that have survived to this day. My knowledge of ancient practices is quite limited.

 

If the God of the Old Testament was a deceiver yes I would expect lies. But because I know the prophecies He has authored. And I know many of the prophecies have been fulfilled as He stated they woud be. I know He is not a liar, but a God who only speaks the truth.

 

Campbell, your dogma doesnt allow for you to believe what I say.
Regardless of if you think he is the only one, you worship your
god and he takes care of you. I would never attempt to actually
discredit your god, but based on semitic mythology, and as a
polytheist, i formed that theory. The Hebrews had many gods
before their covenant with Yahweh.

It was the Yahwehists who changed the OT to reflect only their god.

But, based on my theory, you worship the loving god, friend
to Abraham, and the one Jesus spoke of when he called his
fellow Hebrews back to their Father. They worshipped Yahweh,
forgetting their Father God, El. Jesus was his prophet, calling
them back to him.

 

This was a real good debate. I really like your theory Heron, it makes perfect sense.

 

Thanks man, glad you asked me to get in here.

 

It only makes perfect sense, if you believe that the God of the Bible is a liar, which He is not.

 

Depends on which god of the Bible you are talking about.
The father of the Hebrew people wasnt, the Father of
Jesus wasnt, but the one that it all got credited to,
well, you read the theory.

 

[font=&quot]If you can just assume for a moment that the god of the old testament was indeed the opposer/deceiver, then would you not expect there to be truths presented to give credence to his greater lies? Fulfilled prophesy is shaky evidence to support your assumption. First, the validity of any fulfillment of prophesy is certainly subject to debate, but even if you assume the prophecies are fulfilled exactly as foretold, that could still be a cunning deception. Any good con starts from truths you can accept to build trust for the grand delusion.

I am not saying that this is the case, only that there is absolutely no more evidence for your theory than for Heron's.

Jim[/font]

 

Also from a scriptural standpoint God lies to Adam and Eve when he tells them they will die if they eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. After they eat it and are kicked out, God is concerned that if they were left in the garden they would eat from the Tree of Life and live forever (Gen 3:22) which means the popular theory that Adam and Eve would have been immortal if they hadn't ate the fruit is unsound and that they would have grown old and died either way. In short God lied and interestingly refers to himself in the first person plural also.