I am in no way a "right wing nutter"". I am, on the other hand, much better informed of the Israeli-Palestinian situation, and am much more affected by it, being an Israeli citizen. So do think before labelling.
Being in the middle of a situation can also make you badly informed and less likely to be objective. You can be restricted by your own experience in much the same way that living in London can make me feel that the whole of England is a concrete jungle. Consider this ... If you were living in the middle of a forest you would see the trees, the fauna, the paths ... but you would not see just how big that forest really was, you would be limited by your own subjective experience. However if you were outside the forest, observing from another angle; like for example, flying over it in a helicopter. You would not only see all the trees and fauna of the person living there, you would also see the full size of the forest, the other areas it was affecting and the way people lived outside that forest. You would be able to be much more objective.
... and what nations played the biggest part in allowing Israel to virtually wipe Palestine off the face of the planet in the first place?
Bollocks Israel may have committed a few atrocties against the Palestinian people but it has never tried to wipe the Palestinian people of the face of the planet. In every war Israel has ever fought with neighbouring arab countries and with Palestinian terrorist groups like the PLO Israel has always been attacked first! Don't you remember the 1993 Oslo peace accords signed by Israeli prime minister Rabin and Yasser Arafat when both vowed to work for a peaceful solution. It was broked by Arafat who failed to reign in militants who were attacking Israel. The same people who constantly condemn Israel also ignore oppression of muslims by other muslim countries such as Syria, Jordon and Algeria or when Iraq invaded Kuwait, or what about the massacre in Sudan by the Janjaweed recently. Or what about Indias' massacre and reign of terror against muslims in Kashmir?
Haven't you already had your points picked apart and laughed at in this thread? http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42514 You're getting boring now. What about the massacre of 100's of thousands of native Americans by the white man ... We could go on forever with this ... how about ancient Christians being thrown to the lions? Just because we are against one set of atrocities does not mean we support another lot. Can you tell me why you are on this site if you don't have any pacifist or left wing views, support war and aren't willing to listen or learn?
I was on about current and recent massacres and atrocities which are being ignored by the mainstream left. The mainstream left also keeps trying to lay the blame for the Middle East conflict at the feet of Israel. Why don't they have ago at arab countries who have kept Palestinian refugees and their descendants in squalid refugee camps for over 50 years. Why don't they have ago at the shithead, murdering bastards of Hamas and Hezbollah who think that blowing up a bus full of unarmed, defenceless civilians is legitimate protest. Why don't they have ago at the Palestinian Authority for not cracking down hard enough on Islamic militants who refuse to disarm and end their war aimed at destroying Israel. Why don't they have a go at Arafat for being one of the worlds' most notorious terrorist leaders who is not fit to run a government. Oh and why do they keep calling Israel racist when 20 per cent of Israels' population is arab and from other ethnic minorities and when Israel accepeted Bosnian and Kosovan refugees. They also call Israel murderers when nearly every death caused by Israeli armed forces is accidental during legitimate self defence acts aimed at taking out terrorist bases after a terrorist attack on Israel. Apparantly every country has the right to defend itself but Israel. Thats why the mainstream left condemn Israel for building an anti-suicide bomber wall. I think your constant attacks on Israel are motivated more by anti-semitism than a real desire to for peace in the Middle East. This is no exageration as Israel comes in for more criticsm than any other country in the world by the mainstream left and anarchist movement than any other country in the world. I however though a left winger, don't subscribe to the crap printed in biased papers like Socialist Worker and anarchist bog rolls like Schnews. If you want to fight real genocide and destruction of a people and their country then campaign against Chinas' illegal 55 year occupation Tibet! In which MILLIONS have died and which has been offically recorded as the worst case of genocide since the Nazi holocaust!
So as a 'communist' what organisation would you subsribe to? Most on the left don't fucking have anything to do with Social Jerker either, a point you are obviously missing. Actually if you were a communist you would know that though wouldn't you.
I am a non aligned communist at the moment. Though I do support sensible groups like the Worker Communist Party of Iraq and The Worker Communist Party of Iran, parties who understand that war is sometimes neccessary to overthrow an evil, cruel and despotic regime. Also what is in Socialist Worker is very similar to what you would find in most left wing papers of the last few years. It is too biased, so biased in fact as to be of little use in getting factual information about a situation.
Er the workers Communist Party of Iraq are opposed to the war as it states in the following statement.... Statement of Iraq-Worker communist Party No to America, No to political Islam! Yes to freedom and security! Iraqi-Worker Communist Party April 10th, 2004 The atmosphere of war, destruction and killing has come to dominate many Iraqi cities as a result of the conflict between the US on the one hand and Muqtada al-Sadr?s group, other forces of political Islam, and remnants of the Baath regime on the other. This conflict has taken on dangerous dimensions and heralds catastrophic consequences for the masses of Iraqi people. The fight between the US troops and Muqtada al-Sadr?s forces has engulfed Baghdad, Najaf, Nasiriyah, Basra, Karbala, Omarah and Kut. The US troops have also imposed for more than 3 days a tight siege on the city of Falluja and are attacking the city by apache helicopters, tanks and hundreds of marines, and thus have turned the city into a battlefield for a fierce fight. These battles have so far claimed the lives of over 500 civilians, the majority children. It has also brought immense destruction to the cities. While the US troops are indiscriminately and intensively bombarding residential places, Muqtada al-Sadr?s group and other groups of political Islam are pulling the fight to the residential neighborhoods to embroil the innocent people as an active part of this bloody conflict. The Worker-communist Party of Iraq strongly condemns these criminal actions against civilians. The US war and its policies in Iraq are responsible for these horrifying events. The masses in Iraq have gained nothing from the US promises to bring about freedom and democracy. Instead, they have witnessed a dark scenario and the transfer of administration over the society to religious, ethnocentric and tribal groups which were summoned to the social and political stage from the caves of the Stone Age. The people of Iraq have not gained anything from ?building the new Iraq? and ?reconstruction? but more hunger, unemployment, and destitution. They have gained nothing from the promised ?freedom? but lack of security, chaos and recklessness by groups and gangs of political Islam toward the lives, rights and freedoms. The current events only indicate the depth of dissatisfaction and resentment towards America and its entire policies and projects in Iraq. For these masses, every new day holds heaps of more hardship and tragedy. On the other hand, stand the forces of political Islam along with remnants of the deposed Baath regime. Political Islam, which was unleashed by America itself, is capitalizing on public resentment and dissatisfaction and exploiting the just and widespread mass protest against the occupation to serve their anti- masses interests. The track record of these groups, especially after the collapse of the fascist Baath regime is clear: they have created a nightmare for Iraqi women, youth and freedom lovers. Oppressing women and youth and denying their basic political and civil rights, and systematic violence are daily practices of these political movements. They have not restrained from using the most despicable and anti-human practices and values to impose their rule. These poles of terrorism have no connection to the interests of the people, and their prosperity, liberation or their endeavor to expel America from Iraq. A better life for the masses is a life where there is no room for either party involved in this conflict. The freedom-loving people of Iraq and the Worker-communist Party of Iraq struggle to separate their ranks from both poles of this conflict and to establish and consolidate a third camp as a humanist, liberationist and progressive alternative which stands up to both poles of reaction and terrorism. The masses must not stay handcuffed to this terrorist and bloody conflict. The freedom loving people and the Worker-communist Party of Iraq have no option but to come to the fore in large numbers with organized, armed, and united ranks to combat the lethal forces of reaction and reclaim the Iraqi cities and towns. They must take the initiative and establish centers in neighborhoods and workplaces, which will allow people to protect themselves and run their own affairs. Worker-communist Party of Iraq. April 8, 2004 http://www.uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=4131 And what is in Social Jerker is nothing like what is in most other 'left' papers. Why don't you go away?
But before the war both the Iraq communists and the Kurdish communists were supportive of military action to overthrow Saddams' evil regime. If that had not happened then those same parties would not now be able to operate publicly and stand in the forthcoming elections in Iraq. And if there had not been war than those same party members would still be risking imprisonment, torture and death at the hands of Saddams' thugs! It seems you will go to any lengths to argue against the overthrow of brutal dictators by the west. No matter how brutal and evil a dictator is you still oppose military intervention to end such a regime, why? The only way the Iraqi people could ever have been freed is if the West helped them by ousting Saddam! Iraq was a prison state, a state of fear and terror. Can't you see that war to end such an evil regime was right?
I think it is you who ar talking shite! The vast majority of Iraq people wanted Saddam and his evil, ghastly regime overthrown so they could be free, and the majority of Iraqi people are glad he is gone and we never come back! How would you like to live in a totalitarian state where you could be imprisoned, tortured or beaten to death for criticsing the regime or trying to form a trade union? Moron!
I think that's a major simplification, and an illustration of your selective understanding of the left's position (if 'the left' can even be described as a cohesive political body). Israel is blamed for fuelling the fire and helping to perpetuate the problem. I've never met anyone who condones the acts of Islamic extremists in the middle east. I think you'll find most people here are fairly vehemently opposed to such atrocities. The problem is, these events receive blanket coverage in the mainstream press. The reason you'll find voices raised louder on the left for the Palestinians' problems is because they receive less mainstream exposure. For example, idiots like you say things like: ..... which is a remarkably idiotic and partisan comment. The person with the real bias here is you. I'm sure all the posters on this site would support Israel's right to defend itself against attack, and we would certainly all condemn the acts of suicide bombers. This doesn't stop us questioning the means that Israel employs to protect itself. Bu in your ignorance, you're unwilling to contemplate this important distinction. You'd rather stand in a corner shouting your prejudiced views as loudly as you can. Whereas those of us who are opposed to Israeli atrocities are also opposed to Palestinian atrocities, you're firmly on the side of Israel, seeing everything in simplistic, polarised extremes. Your above statement shows you for the ill-informed fool that you are. Israel has consistently attacked civilian areas in acts of retaliation against suicide bombings. Not because they've suddenly and conveniently discovered terrorist bases, but simply as acts of revenge. This is well documented, and not exactly a conspiracy theory! Perhaps you're unaware the Amnesty International has condemned the deliberate destruction of Palestinian homes by the Israeli army as a war crime? Or perhaps you view Amnesty International as 'leftist'? You really don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about, do you? So now we're racists? Either you're a Jewish Zionist, or a fucking idiot. So they didn't like you either, huh?
I do not live in Israel anymore. I have travelled all around the world and have seen and heard a million perspectives on the situation.
