Many spiritual people accept science and have no problem integrating science with thier spiritual beliefs. It 's only those with a lieralist and narrow idea of it all that I meant. Unfortunately, a lot of Iskcon people have such a narrow view. Many other Indian spiritual teachers such as Vivekananda whom you mention, and also Paramhansa Yoganada, as well as Sri Aurobindo have sought to reconcile modern science with ancient wisdom. Also Indian scientists such as Amit Goswami are doing some interesting work.
Perhaps it is...perhaps that's why its a leap of faith...because its into something you don't know...
a leap into the unknown - it's only by going beyond the known that we can grow. In a way, that's what I meant before about becoming empty - letting go what one thinks one knows and just being open - it's not just in the realm of ideas I mean here..it's hard to put into words really. It's like a certian quality of trust that is needed - but at the same time, it's also like a kind of confidence ...to be able to let go. There's a zen saying - 'my house burned down. Now I have a clearer view of the rising moon'. And Chief Cowpie is right that we need to discover and create -
Not just confidence...also...I think...courage and humility. Both of which are hard traits to come by. But I think we can't even begin to take a leap of faith until we are brave enough to let go of everything we thought we knew and humble enough to accept that we don't know everything... I think the same holds true for the bhakti path (which I know someone was talking about earlier)... that you have to be brave and humble to put yourself out there and to give up all to chase for something your not sure exists but you know somewhere that it does... I think Sri Krishnaprem says something in his letter to Sri Dilip Kumar Roy that this spiritual path is the hardest in the world...
Yes - and Sweet Mother said it is only when one relizes one's 'complete nullity' that a real awakening of the spirit can happen. That sounds pretty un-attractive in some ways, but actually, it is a quite blissful experience... Nature, it is said, abhors a vacum. And that's true on the spiritual level too - if one can become fully quiet and empty, it makes room for sometnig else to manifest. To return to a zen example - in the accounts of the satori (awakening) of many of the old chan and zen masters, it isn't that the realization of emptiness leads them off into some kind of abstracted trance state - it is more as is said an instantaneous turning about in the seat of consciousness. In a flash, everything is the same, yet everything is totally different. Fear is the great enemy. Fear of letting go, fear of change, fear of all sorts of obscure things which dwell in the human psyche. That's why I think we need to have faith in love, and that there is a kind of nurturing power or consciousness in which we can trust knowing that this power will never judge us, or impose anything on us. The love is unconditional. Ramakrishna used to speak of the total trust of the infant for it's mother. It is that quality of trust we need to regain.
You said before that you want to follow the music - and that's the thing, to let that music lead you where it will. When the gopis heard Krishna's flute they just dropped everything. They showed no hesitation - they were ready to let go all to follow that divine music of Krishna's. They had total trust and confidence - they didn't need couage, becuase they knew when they heard that sound that they could trust entirely in the divine love of which it was a manifestation. We don't hear that music as clearly and directly as the gopis, but their story serves as an example from the Bhakti path.
I agree. logic has its limited purpose. Krishna , who is the ultimate reality is beyond logic. :jester:
I agree! . The fact is, surrender to God, whether you call Him "universe" or Krishna, is the best option for us all
Mmm....unfortunetely we are not the gopis...sometimes it can be a pretty scary thing to drop everything and just go..... I think we think to much for it to be that easy... lol....
you are only not a gopi as much as you think you are not a gopi... the analysis creates the separation so what are you wanting to drop? studying for tomorrow's test or writing a paper... this kind of dropping is abandonement of duty and not prescribed by gita dropping everything means dropping the logical mind that measures and qualifies everything according to its limited conditioned perspective observing the flowing river through the heart with the mind bobbling along as a boat of consciousness gives a perspective
I meant the second one.... sometimes I think its hard for both myself and others to drop all the conditioned things we though about the world and give into something bigger...that's what I think faith helps you do...to take the leap into that unknown territory...you know what I am saying? Perhaps we will one day develop a love as strong as the gopis...I pray we do...I can't say that all of us will instantaneously have that kind of devotion though...rather its something we have to work on...pealing away the layers of limits in our mind that stop us from doing so... On the second note...I didn't mean that kind of giving up however at this present moment in time not studying for this test anymore would kind of be nice hehehe...that's ok...I'll take it today and it will be fine. But yeah... sorry if I'm not making any sense by the way... I've been a bit out of it lately....
He he - you know chief, after I'd posted the bit about the gopis and read Nicole's reply, I thought to my self 'I'm sure CP may have something to say here'. And you're right. Also we have to try to see what the gopis represent. IMO it's not that we should think of them as individuals in the ordinary sense. The gopis are inside.
ditto, gopi isn't about a thing... its about everything... total inundation of consciousness in prema
I agree, we need to first purify our hearts such that they clearly reflect the love for God that is shining on our souls. This requires discipline, it doesn't happen just like that, but even then it may not happen. We may never realize that infinite love, so basically what we are really waiting upon is really on God's grace to give us that kind of love. In my opinion, it is only through God's grace that we will ever show any love toward anyone or anything.
Humanists with no belief in god show love. Often more love than the religious, who can often be quite superior and judgemental. Futhermore - animals too show love, and they don't have any beliefs.
What humanists don't realize that the source of that love is God. What Animals don't understand is that the source of such love is God.
It makes no practical difference - if I get injured and someone takes care of me, I don't care if they know why they are a good person - it's enough that they are. Also it's worth remembering that unless we have a dualistic view, like the xians, where there is a good god and a bad devil, hate also comes from the same source as love. We can't really say what animals know. They may 'know' more than us in some ways. Certainly their feelings seem to be more pure and less constructed than ours. But that's based on my own limited experience of empathy with animals.
