Explain...

What Diana says is true. I quote scripture all the time, bhavad geeta, vedas, ramayana, etc. I love it, it helps me stay centred in my spiritual side. And yes, it is good to question and try to understand, but it must be with an open mind, not preconcieved and possibly incorrect notions and dislikes. If you have already decided some ways of praying in Buddhism are abhorrent and hateful, then your questioning is going to have no value, for you will not learn anything from it. I pray to Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma and my toilet seat that you may find peace of mind and deliverance from the anger and hatred that burn you from within.

 

You both truly make a point concerning angerness and hatred, the angry person may do and say things he wouldn't had otherwise and the outcome could be terrible, enough for me to quote is 2 verses and hadiths.

".who repress anger, and who pardon men; verily, Allaah loves Al-Muhsinoon (the good-doers)." [Quran Aal 'Imraan 3:134]

"And those who avoid the greater sins, and Al-Fawaahish (illegal sexual intercourse), and when they are angry, they forgive." [Quran al-Shooraa 42:37]

man said to the Prophet ((peace and blessing of Allah be upon him)), "Advise me." He said: "Do not get angry." The man repeated his request several times, and he said, "Do not get angry." (Al-Bukhaari)

The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him)said: "The strong man is not the one who can wrestle (fight); the strong man is the one who controls himself at the time of anger." (Al-Bukhaari)

But without doubt, something can not be left out without being hated. I can openly confess that I hate rape, murder and oppression and such crimes. Let us remember Bhaskar that what is normal here may be totally different somewhere else, what classifies as a crime is what the society recognize as one. In my eyes adultery and fornication are both horrible crimes, indeed I feel quite disgusted of seeing young students when waiting outside the classrooms kissing and hugging, It makes me feel sick because in my eyes this is a crime, on the other hand I see no diffuclty in marrying ones cousin while people here view this as quite dispiseful

My point being, if you were to visit a small town were all the inhabitants were strict jews or muslims and then worship Shiva or your "toilet seat", then in the minds of people, even though no legal action would be taken it would be classed as the worst a human being could ever do.

By Him who holds my soul in his hand I would rather be put on a cross than to bow to one, this may answer something about why I hate polytheistic worship, if not than perhaps the ritual of Lingam and Yona is enough, rubbing a giant erected penis with butter, milk and water is well...
I have no comments

 

Cab, I think you're putting words into the mouths of Orthodox Jews everywhere. The majority I have met think for themselves, and there are always different ways to understand a situation, even halakhically.

Dauer

 

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength[Deu 6]


Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. 14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; 15 for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land[Deu 6]

As for christians;

he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. [Mark 12]

Remember what happend to the children of Israeel when they worshipped the golden calf? Jews that stricly follow the scripture can by no means overlook such verses.

 

If you see the shivalingam as a symbol of the penis your mind is far too absorbed in your genitalia. The shivalingam is a bridge between nirguna and saguna worship, it is an idol, yet one without human form or shape, one step closer to the formless and infinite. It is also a symbol of the cosmic column of fire from which Shiva came, the source of which even brahma and vishnu were unable to find. The word lingam itself means symbol and Shivalingam means symbol of shiva.

Also if you see 2 people hugging each other outside a classroom and you immediately assume it is sexual, again your mind seems obsessed with it. Even if it is, there is nothing wrong with sex. If your parents had not made love you would not be here today. If you go back far enough there was a time when marriage concept did not exist. We are descendants of that age, so our ancestry itself is "tainted".
All intolerance is a result of misunderstanding. You don't understand a word of Hinduism, you dont even want to, all you want to do is go on bad mouthing that religion and giving your own spin to everything that is taught therein, with the intention of making it seem barbaric and stupid. As a result you only flaunt a banner of your own ignorance and intolerance.

 

And when Jesus said that the Lord is One, still do you fail to understand the obvious nonduality of those words? By saying the Lord is one, Christ says that there is none other than the lord, sarvam khalvidam brahma (everything is verily the lord alone). In that sense the lors is truly one and we are all parts of that oneness, drops in the ocean.

By saying the Lord is jealous you attribute to him weaknesses of man. Envy is one of the 7 deadly sins. So is wrath. Do you then say that your Lord is a sinner?

This is a classica case of symbolism in the scriptures. In this case it is quite obvious too. The golden calf represents material riches, worldly pursuits of wealth and plenty. By worshipping these worldly riches, the children of Israel stopped worshipping God and turned their attention to all other worldly pursuits and so they recieved the results of their errors.

It does not imply in any way that the worship of God in any form is wrong. What it means is that it is wrong to worship some form losing sight of the divinity within it.

 

Yes, exactly. The Jews were told not to worship any object and to direct their prayers directly to God. This is for the Jews to follow. Then there is the issue of what qualifies as idolatry and what does not, if there are varying degrees of idolatry. For instance, Maimonides rules that while it would be idolatry for a Jew to worship Jesus, it is not idolatry for a Christian. I think the reason is that they believe it is monotheism and don't know any better. So, while as a Jew I consider Hinduism idolatry for a Jew, these are questions that run through my mind:

Is the nature of this idolatry the same as that the Torah specifically forbids or is it different? Is there any reason whatsoever that Hinduism should offend me because of the worship of trees and people and toilets? My answer, and I do not have access to a rabbinic response to this issue, is that Hindus do not actually worship trees. Hindus worship Brahman, and Brahman is everything. The biblical prohibition is against saying a statue or some other physical object is actually God, in whole and not in part.

This is illustrated in the midrash about Abraham in which we are told that his father built idols, and while his father was out he smashed the idols, and placed the hammer into the hand of the largest. When his father came home he told him that the idol did it. The issue is with attributing power to something physical.

There is actually a somewhat liberal response to the issue of idolatry that states that the real issue is the covenant between God and Israel. Other people can certainly worship God through other things, but because of their special relationship, Jews must worship God directly.

Dauer

 

Bhaskar,

I must disagree with you about the calf. This is why:

Not to make a graven image; neither to make it oneself nor to have it made by others (Ex. 20:4) (CCN9).
Not to make any figures for ornament, even if they are not worshipped (Ex. 20:20) (CCN144).
Not to make idols even for others (Ex. 34:17; Lev. 19:4) (CCN10).
Not to use the ornament of any object of idolatrous worship (Deut. 7:25) (CCN17).
Not to make use of an idol or its accessory objects, offerings, or libations (Deut. 7:26) (CCN18). See Grape Products.
Not to drink wine of idolaters (Deut. 32:38) (CCN15). See Grape Products.
Not to worship an idol in the way in which it is usually worshipped (Ex. 20:5) (CCN12).
Not to bow down to an idol, even if that is not its mode of worship (Ex. 20:5) (CCN11).
Not to prophesy in the name of an idol (Ex. 23:13; Deut. 18:20) (CCN27).
Not to hearken to one who prophesies in the name of an idol (Deut. 13:4) (CCN22).
Not to lead the children of Israel astray to idolatry (Ex. 23:13) (CCN14).
Not to entice an Israelite to idolatry (Deut. 13:12) (CCN23).
To destroy idolatry and its appurtenances (Deut. 12:2-3) (affirmative).
Not to love the enticer to idolatry (Deut. 13:9) (CCN24).
Not to give up hating the enticer to idolatry (Deut. 13:9) (CCN25).
Not to save the enticer from capital punishment, but to stand by at his execution (Deut. 13:9) (negative).
A person whom he attempted to entice to idolatry shall not urge pleas for the acquittal of the enticer (Deut. 13:9) (CCN26).
A person whom he attempted to entice shall not refrain from giving evidence of the enticer's guilt, if he has such evidence (Deut. 13:9) (negative).
Not to swear by an idol to its worshipers, nor cause them to swear by it (Ex. 23:13) (CCN13).
Not to turn one's attention to idolatry (Lev. 19:4) (CCN16).
Not to adopt the institutions of idolaters nor their customs (Lev. 18:3; Lev. 20:23) (CCN21).
Not to pass a child through the fire to Molech (Lev. 18:21) (negative).
Not to suffer any one practicing witchcraft to live (Ex. 22:17) (negative).
Not to practice onein (observing times or seasons as favorable or unfavorable, using astrology) (Lev. 19:26) (CCN166).
Not to practice nachesh (doing things based on signs and portents; using charms and incantations) (Lev. 19:26) (CCN165).
Not to consult ovoth (ghosts) (Lev. 19:31) (CCN170).
Not to consult yid'onim (wizards) (Lev. 19:31) (CCN171).
Not to practice kisuf (magic using herbs, stones and objects that people use) (Deut. 18:10) (CCN168).
Not to practice kessem (a general term for magical practices) (Deut. 18:10) (CCN167).
Not to practice the art of a chover chaver (casting spells over snakes and scorpions) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN169).
Not to enquire of an ob (a ghost) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN172).
Not to seek the maytim (dead) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN174).
Not to enquire of a yid'oni (wizard) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN173).
Not to remove the entire beard, like the idolaters (Lev. 19:27) (CCN177).
Not to round the corners of the head, as the idolatrous priests do (Lev. 19:27) (CCN176).
Not to cut oneself or make incisions in one's flesh in grief, like the idolaters (Lev. 19:28; Deut. 14:1) (CCN28).
Not to tattoo the body like the idolaters (Lev. 19:28) (CCN163).
Not to make a bald spot for the dead (Deut. 14:1) (CCN164).
Not to plant a tree for worship (Deut. 16:21) (negative).
Not to set up a pillar (for worship) (Deut. 16:22) (CCN162).
Not to show favor to idolaters (Deut. 7:2) (CCN20).
Not to make a covenant with the seven (Canaanite, idolatrous) nations (Ex. 23:32; Deut. 7:2) (negative).
Not to settle idolaters in our land (Ex. 23:33) (negative) (CCI26).
To slay the inhabitants of a city that has become idolatrous and burn that city (Deut. 13:16-17) (affirmative).
Not to rebuild a city that has been led astray to idolatry (Deut. 13:17) (negative).
Not to make use of the property of city that has been so led astray (Deut. 13:18) (negative).

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Taken into the context of the rest of the Torah, it is clear that it is at the very least about making a physical representation of God. It was possibly an attempt at turning back to Egyptian practice by creating a pseudo-Apis statue.

Dauer

 

Is a dancer seperate from her dance?

 

I'm responding to what I just noticed trippin responding to.

According to Jewish mysticism, God did create from inside Himself, in a process of emanation. A further example of Godness in the world, God blows the soul into man's nostrils. When we blow into something it is from within ourselves. That is all entirely valid for an Orthodox Jew, if they are inclined to believe that.

Dauer

 

Dauer, I am glad you have joined this thread. Thank you for the excellent necklace of quotes. My point is this: idol worship is only idol worship as long as you are worshipping the idol. To use the idol as a focus point, but direct the prayers to God is not idol worship. In such a sense idol worship in Hindus would also be considered ignorant, unfortunately many "Hindus" do live thus in ignorance.

Also, I do not deny any of what you say, I accept it completely. I fail to see why the symbolism I spoke of and the literal meaning of not resorting to idol worship cannot coexist. Such is the way in many scriptures. For example, there is great symbolism hidden in the Ramayana, although the Rama avatar did actually occur in history.

 

Yes, I entirely agree with you. That's what I was saying about biblical idolatry. It would mean saying that a statue is exclusively God, while everything else is not. In Judaism it can actually be taken so far as to include putting anything before God, be it money or whatever else. But to clarify the meaning of this, God's will is understood through the mitzvot.

The reason I say from a Jewish position that Hinduism is still a form of idolatry, is because idols are used, as well as other physical objects. While prayers are directed to God, they are directed through or with the aide of other forms. But as I said as well, I don't see why it's wrong for a Hindu to do that, only for a Jew to do that. I was responding to cad's statement that a fully observant Jew would be disgusted by Hinduism. Unfortunately for him, as a people we tend to be very big on examining and understanding things before coming to a conclusion. It comes from the legal tradition. I truly doubt many Jews would be "disgusted" by Hinduism.

I agree with you here. We have four different levels of understanding a sacred text in Judaism. Pshat is the plain meaning(Not literal.) Remez is the alluded meaning. Drash is the exegetical, drawn out meaning. Sod is the hidden meaning. However, to me it seemed like you were suggesting it was the exclusive meaning while the plain meaning (which as Jews we try to keep in mind when looking at other levels) is clearly about either worshipping God through an idol or praying to other gods.


Actually, modern biblical criticism offers a very different answer. It suggests that this was written by the Shilonite priesthood, who represented the Mosaic tradition, after repreatedly being brushed aside, as a polemic. It implicates the Aaronite priesthood in Jerusalem because Aaron makes the calf and implicates the Northern Kingdom because the calf is like the bulls that they set up, one in each of two ancestral places of worship.

But that has nothing to do with Torah as a sacred text.

Dauer

 

The thing is, there are so many ways of worship in Hinduism and using pictures/idols is just one way. There are many who meditate upon and worship nirguni brahman, formless, infinite.

You just said a lot of words I didnt understand...

 

I really don't know enough about that path to say anything, but if it is as clear as you say it is, then it is clearly not idolatry. I really don't want you to feel offended by the term. As I have said, there is a difference between the classical biblical idolatry and that which I would also identify in Christianity. There is a difference between someone who is not Jewish doing this, and someone who is Jewish doing this. I know sometimes the word can be used as an epithet but it's really not meant that way in this case. Based on what I know, I have a lot of respect for Hinduism.

It's really not that important. According to modern biblical criticism up is down and left is right. I consider it possibly useful for understanding biblical history better, but not very useful for understanding Torah as a sacred text. Make note once more that I am quite liberal. I consider a text sacred only because we recognize it as sacred. However, if there is a divine plan, then all sacred texts are sacred for someone at some time because God has willed it to be so. Therefore, God made all of these texts sacred for particular individuals. These are my personal beliefs.

Dauer

edit: Just one other thing. It is not the idol that makes it idolatry. Anything material taken to be god. At some point this just becomes semantics and at some point I would be in no place to say whether or not it is idolatry. But identifying something physical as God would be. I'm tripping up now because of monism. I don't know enough to begin to say. Seems like some of it is semantics, but not all.

 

It's like you said: it's only idolatry when one considers the idol to be god, while everything else is not. If one considers the idol to contain god and uses it as a focus for prayer or meditation, while ALSO recognizing that god is not in the idol alone, but is everywhere, in everything, always, then it's not idolatry; it's just a focal point.

 

Trippin,

by the Jewish definition, it still qualifies as idolatry because it is not worshipping God directly. That is why Christianity is considered idolatry, because there it is worship via a manifestation.

I see it as semantics because in Jewish Mysticism it is possible to recognize the Divine spark within an object. However, the Hindu view of an object still falls on the other side of the Jewish laws of idolatry, which means absolutely nothing to anyone but a Jew or a Noahide. Basically, this is a legal issue that has no implications outside of the acceptable practices for a Jew. There are probably a number of legal discourses on Hinduism, probably showing that while the practices are as idolatrous as Christianity and therefore unacceptable for a Jew, they are also no more idolatrous than Christianity, and therefore have no particular implications on the types of contact a traditional Jew can have with someone who is Hindu.

The Hebrew term for idolatry is actually much less specific than the English one and does not even suggest an idol. Avodah Zara means strange worship/service and as you can see, this term is much more ambiguous.

Dauer

 

I just have one question... The God we speak of here is all pervading. How is a manifestation of God different from God? To distinguish manifestations of God form God is like trying to distinguish the drops of water that make up the ocean. In whatever form you worship, you are worshipping God alone, because there is nothing else you can worship. The verse that is a part of the daily rites for a HIndu explains it beautifully:

aakashat pattam toyam
yatha gachati saagaram
sarva deva namaskaraha
keshavam pratigachati

Just as all the waters that fall from the sky eventually reach the ocean, so too all prayers eventually reach the one God only.

 

Well, this will be easier to explain if I can give you some of the basis for the panentheist thread of Judaism. The understanding in Judaism is that God is one, infinite, with no multiplicity. The question at that point is, how can we be here if that is the case?

In tzimtzum, God contracts to create a space that is not Him so that there can be a world. Then (I'm not sure exactly how it works so I'll mention two different stages that are both important) God creates vessels to hold Divine light. But they cannot contain it and break, and so the empty space is filled with the Divine light and the bits of shell.

It's a process of emanation. There are four worlds. The fourth is ours. But ours is also a part of the shell, which is the absence of God. So basically, we are filled with Godness but we are not God. It is the job of the kabbalistic Jew to raise up the Divine sparks, reuniting Hashem with the Shekhina, which is at its most basic a technical word for God's presence in the world. The ultimate goal is to raise up all of the sparks, which would then reverse dual existence.

Jewish panentheism therefore, is different. My cup is not God. There is Godness within the cup. The word is not really shell, but husk. It is something that is meant to be peeled away to reveal the Divine.

Nor do I disagree that all prayers reach God. The Jewish belief is that any prayer will reach God, but that does not mean it's not avodah zara.

So we are really understanding God in two different ways. According to Judaism any worship of a manifestation qualifies as idolatry because the manifestation is not God, even if they are almost entirely filled with the Divine. Now, if I haven't made this clear, I really think all of religious thought is semantics and that is why there are so many approaches. But according to Judaism, praying to a manifestation is a form of idolatry. I'm not trying to change your mind and convince you you're an idolater or anything like that. This is simply the Jewish definition, by which Christianity and much of Hinduism qualifies. It doesn't make you a bad person according to Judaism. It means Jews cannot do it, and Bnai Noah cannot do it. Like I said, not an epithet, but rather a legal issue. There is even a quote from Pirkei Avot:

"[Rabbi Chaninah ben Dosa] would say: Whoever is pleasing to his fellow creatures is pleasing to G-d; but whoever is not pleasing to his fellow creatures, G-d is not pleased with him." Avot 4:3

Pretty simple.

I'm not sure this really helped to clarify anything. It really seems like this discussion is more me saying, "This is the Jewish definition of idolatry." And then someone else saying, "But that is not idolatry because x." I don't mean to simplify the arguements, but it doesn't change the Jewish definition of avodah zara. No matter how much we discuss, I cannot change the Jewish definition. I completely understand your point of view and I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all. In response to what cad said I was clarifying the Jewish position.

Dauer

 

So the law against idolatry only applies to Jews? For a Jew to worship the Lord through a manifestation is idolatry, but for a Hindu or a Christian, it isn't?

Further, does the Jew consider it wrong, stupid, or evil for a Hindu to, as per their religion, pray through such a manifestation?