Evolution Occurs

Hmm,

Actually, the mockingbird has been shown to do some improvisation, as has the parrot. And whales and dolphins most certainly do, all the time. Music is not a primate only phenomenon. Really, what is the adaptive value of a mockingbird singing all night every night in the tree outside my house, rarely ever repeating a stanza?

I'm personally a fan of Hofstadter's view on consciousness. That it's a natural by-product of any active, self-referential algorithm of a high enough degree of complexity. Meaning it is quite possible, in fact likely, that anthills have some degree of consciousness, along with the internet.

I'm also of the opinion that all traits are both adaptive, and by-products, by turn. The selection process is -far- more complex than we like to give it credit for. The number of unknown variables involved is far too high to even create a reasonable simplified model. We can speculate, and create models that fit the data, but since there are thousands of possible simplified models that fit the data, all with millions of unknown variables, all we are left with is pure speculation.

 

I have also come to regard any integral system as being conscious and also that there is prime intent.

I think that is true of judgment but not of identification. We can identify an amoeba, but when we start to place it within a larger hierarchy then we get into speculation and perpetual arbitration.

By the way, "Hmm", occurs to me a much better preface than "shrug", seems somehow more hopeful.

 

I think you might be giving up too easily, dope. After all, Irminsul did not totally preclude the possibility she could be convinced - with or without the utilization of broccoli in the discussion. She merely said it would be HARD to convince her, thus leaving open the tantalizing possibility that victory could - possibly - be won by someone willing to expend vast resources on the project.

 

Interesting thought, though to be honest I'm not sure what to do with it. As far as the sensory apparatus itself, sound certainly is tactile at its root, since it derives from physical movement. Sight is based on detection of differences in electromagnetic frequencies, which certainly does not seem tactile, but leaves me with the conundrum I've never gotten past, which is: Just what the hell IS electromagnetism, anyway? However I'm intrigued by the implication that as the sensory apparatuses for sight and hearing evolved, the brain structures for processing the sensory input evolved concommitantly, leaving me wondering: How did the evolution of the two modes of sensory perception affect our overall thinking processes? Interesting to mull that over...

 

How does it appear to us now? Two voices in our head.

 

How much resource is exhausted in a moments patience? Infinite patience brings immediate results. Hardness is hardness of heart. I have already convinced.

 

This is almost exactly what my spirit guide Deanna's license plate says, except that she has an additional "m."

You're correct, and I see that my research was overly superficial before I wrote my post.

Keep in mind, I never made this statement: "No animal besides homo sapiens improvises music." So if you're trying to argue with that statement, it's not me you're arguing with.

Keep in mind that I also never made this statement: "Only primates produce music." Maybe you're thinking of someone else.

From the various examples I might have chosen for my comparison, I selected birds - probably the most obvious group of animals to choose when we think about musical ability. It's certainly true that other animals produce music, and even improvise, as you point out. The point of my comparison was to compare the complexity of musical sophistication. I think my comparison would still hold true, even if we substituted the cetaceans you mentioned, or even if we substituted other primates as examples instead.

From my limited reading on the subject after reading your post, I see that female mockingbirds are apparently preferentially attracted to males that have more complex songs. Some folks think that complex mockingbird songs are related to higher intelligence, which would make the females' preference appropriate for selecting a mate for higher adaptive value. This is substantiated by the finding that mockingbirds that live in areas of more unpredictable weather also have more complex songs.

It could be that more complex musical ability in humans is related to mate attraction in a similar way...

I'll buy that. I might want to give it more more thought...

Sure, and so adaptations might turn out to be adaptive in some other way unrelated to the original factors that selected for them.

I agree that the variables are complex, but what you seem to be saying is: It's too complex, so don't even try. We may not be able to understand every impinging factor, but to say we can't understand anything at all seems much too limiting and limited to be true.

 

I suppose that's right, isn't it? The integration of the two voices happens so smoothly and quickly that I don't notice it except if I concentrate on it.

 

I'm already convinced. I think it's much more interesting to discuss the possibility of convincing Irminsul than to actually make an effort to convince her.

 

That's an outstanding statement - I want to remember that.

 

You are still at it?

I see same folks repeating the same mantra to unsuspecting audience with nothing more than "you must believe this or else...!" rhetoric.
Darwinism is a Religion, just as any other, and has nothing to do with science.

But there is no point in arguing with Religious people about Science, so i probably won't be revisiting this thread anytime soon.

Hey, monkeyboy, how was your last trip to Moon on cannonball? Tell us some stories now

 

Hey guy. How about some alternate subjects from you. How's your love life?

 

Looks like you have a vision problems.
Did i start this thread or keep it up for past 8 months?
Target of your question is surely misplaced.

 

I've missed you.
The target of my question is, can you think of another motive besides arguing with religious people about science. This thread is posted in the philosophy and religion forum. Perhaps you could describe how your love life fits or does not fit with the idea that evolution occurs.

 

Long time no see. How's your gas stove and 1998 toyota camry SE?

 

Both are slowly evolving, monkeyboy.
Even though we may not see it in our life times, yet i am sure, give it a few billion years and my gas stove will evolve into 1998 Toyota and vice versa

 

"Curioser and curioser" said Alice!!!!
--------------

Thedope--

Now?

Once I saw beneath the stair a little man who wasn't there--

 

Then what happened?

 

I followed him into the dark—
I hesitated not when he said “Hark!”
But asked him “Why?,” and he said sly:

To ask or search I blame thee not,
for Heaven is as the Book of God before thee set,
wherein to read his wondrous works, and learn his seasons, hours, or days, or months, or years:
This to attain, whether Heaven move or Earth, imports not, if thou reckon right;
The rest from Man or Angel the great Architect did wisely conceal, and not divulge his secrets to be scanned by them who ought rather admire.*

And so I asked, (because I’m crass) ,

When The “Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on”: does all your Piety and Wit
Lure it back to cancel half a Line?
Do all your Tears wash out a Word of it?**