euthanasia and animals

My friend saw God. And Moses and Abraham saw Him too. Nobody has seen the Fathers face though (hm...maybe A&E) until they got to Heaven, that is.

A five year old has the ability to know about G-d.
orangutans, however, have the same amount of intelligence, but they still don't understand the concept of G-d. They just don't.


Even a mentally retarded person has a deep yearning for the supernatural somewhere in his heart!
A deep yearning for some kind of worship. For love.
If it's not G-d they worship, than it could be anything: -sex, lust, cars, money, cows, one's own pride...
Anything! But the Living Lamb of G-d!

Right. They have a soul. Why else does almost every cat have a different personallity? Instincts are things that are the same by every creature.
If it was all based on instinct, they'd have the same personality.

Have a will too, but not a free will.

Adam and Eve just had to eat that fruit...
Bible says we're consumed by worms.
We're made in G-d's image, that's why we're so special...and dangerous.

 

what was your freind taking? that musta been some good shit
i saw god too when i was tripping..abraham probably was munchin some mushrooms & moses peyote
we all can imagine things at times

and how can you be so sure? do you speak orangutang?
on the other hand how can u be sure your concept of god isnt just fantasy?

huh? ok, just to find out if thats true, i just talked to a freind of mine who is mentaly retarded & asked him if he had a deep yearning for god, he said no not really i would like some candy (paraphrased since hes very hard to understand)
he does gl to church & i've gone with him..but he pays no attention to the service, he goes to get all the flyers & panthlets he can cause he has an ocd habbot of constantly scribbling on paper, he does that at supermarkets & churches & golf courses & goes anywhere to just find more paper to write on

umm ok thats just terminology..if they have a will but not free will then what is it? expensive will? not theyre own will? maybe theyre will is gods will then?
isnt all will free will?
c'mon..you cant give a better explanaition then that?

wtf is that suposed to mean?

i started to reply to this..& the italicized "had" made me think perhaps they didnt have fre will till after they were ejected? but i', not sure thats whayt u meant..or if this made any sence at all..
..was there a point to any of this? if so..please make it so i can respond

 

because they ate that stupid fruit all this pollution and evil is in the world.

Anyways, you really know a mentally retarded person? That's interesting.

Cats look at some dry food. But they don't want it, so they'll try to do anything not to eat it eventhough they're very hungry. That's willpower, so they have a will.

However, God can control their mind (not ours because that'd break His promise), so it's not free, they can't make choices if God or His angels is
angels don't allow them to take a certain choice. They don't know good from evil because they can't feel guilt.

God's too real to be a fantasy.
And I bet if one would talk with an oragutan about religion and God they'd just be very random about it.

 

so are you blaming the fruite for all the evil in the world? isnt that kinda childish? or are you blaming god for creating this evil fruit?

yes & hes a really good person hes 1 of the first 3 to help me turn a drug filled crack neighbourgood into an island of serenity, a garden of love

thats an assumption & a short sited one at that, just look in the eyes of any animal that knows its done something wrong & u will see the guilt they feel...if god created animals simply as food & playthins for us to use..why would he bother controlling theyre minds? after all wouldnt they be unimpotyant?

god is too real? you mean you can shake his hand? play football with him?
tickle him? what makes you beleive he is real? (besides the same old tired argument that the bible says he is..or cause you choose to beleive he is)
and..arent your arguments about god just as random as an orangatan's? a monkey can be taught to quote bible verses

 

I never mentioned that animals are play things.
He's 'too real' because he answers my prayers, which is proof enough for me. As well as supernatural evidences.

I'm blaming Adam and Eve for even thinking about eating that fruit...( as if I would have done anything less...^^; )

 

well its been mentioned that they were put here to be food & provide entertainment, not sure if it was you who said it though

supernatural evidences? fcan you provide examples?
so..he answers your prayers huh? why is it when mo;;ops pray for something (world peavce for example) he ignores them..yet he answers you? or do you imagine he answers your prayers..oh yea..ofcourse if he doesnt answer your prayers its cause its godswill right?
well come on, pray as hard as you can that this is my very last post & i see the light & become a good little mindless christian..pray withj all the faith you got, & lets see if he answers your prayers..or for that matter since u can say my free will interferes with gods will..pray my computer dies & i cant post anymore

come on..you blame adam & even when god is damgling this so called fruit there & saying this fruite will answer all your questions & give you full knowledge of all things..but dong u dare eat it (which apperently wasa huge lie since theres no mention of them gaining any knowledge, ever wonder about that? they bite the apple & all they discover s parasise isa lie & so is ultimate knowledge..oh yea & that god isnt a loving being, hesa vengeful pety trickster

 

hi everyone


loads more replys than i expected, am happy cos its my first thread lol

spot on!

thats a lovely story

the way you say it makes it sound like a fact, but it isn't, thats just your opinion, it is a proven scientific fact we are animals. believe me we are not that different from other animals. i work with them and they are very clever, the only difference that i can see is well that we have the ability to create technology and stuff and to harm the earth and each other. Animals build houses, raise thier young, communicate, learn etc in the same way as we do.

just because christians believe that they don't have souls, but that is just a spiritual perspectie- what about when animals are physchic- they have much better senses then us, what about when animals help each other and people. to me that shows that they are not different to humans and taht tehy do have a soul.

the more i learned at college when learning about animals and working with them the more it made me realise just how amazing they are, its absolutely fascinating

ryupower - what do you think of human euthanasia- surely humans shouldn't be made to suffer?

think about it this way- we evolved from animals (ok so i know you don't agree with evolution ) we evolved from primates so why are we any different? we once were the same as other animals- its only because we have developed this arrogant attitude towards other species.

we may have technology etc but are we really anymore advanced than other species?, we still behave in primeval ways. we still act on instinct.

peace and love
issy

 

One must wonder if death is truly what the animal wants. I'm not against it, so much, but it is something to think about. What if the animal would prefer to live, even in pain? Same for humans. I can easily support euthanasia for people when they are conscious and ask for it, and perhaps for a braindead person who is already dead, except for the machine driven heart and lungs. But what about just a vegetative state? What if that is absolute bliss?

Still, I'd probably do it when my dog is old, in too much pain to walk (she has bad hips already), and all that...but part of me will wonder: is it what she wants? Maybe she just wants to be near her family till she dies (not till she's killed). I don't know if animals can really "choose" but still...

 

being trained is definetely not instinct, it is learning, aniamls are perfectly capable of learning and learn the same as humans. eg - their parents teach them how to hunt etc. animals can even be taught how too play computer games etc.

uuuuuuhhhhh noooo

yeah when i was really little and i used to kind of believe in god, i remeber thinking why should god be a man, then when i became pagan and i believed in the god and godess, i thought well why should something that is meant to be so powerful be a man and woman, it didn't seem right to me, so now i believe in a universal force that is present in all living things but doesn't have a personality.

This woman that i know (priestess of the grove i belong to ) has written some excellent stuff on god and phchology etc, basically she says that - we create gods for the same reason that children create personalities for their teddy bears (amprhomorphosie), give them names and make up stories, and that the fact that we believe in gods is based on the same psychcological principal (did i explain that ok lol?)

how is there any difference to have a will means being able to do whatever you want freely!!

RE- adam and eve- even my really christian (and judgemental) RE teacher didn't take that story literally, its just a story made up to help people understand things. there are loads of ancient mythologies in lots of different religions- eg celtic mythology but the people of that religion know taht it isn't literal!

peace and love
issy

 

are ya sure?

By the way, seahorse, not all animals act out of pure instinct. Dolphins, elephants, and apes (if not others) have higher intellegence than pure instinct. Elephants, for example, aren't born knowing "how to be an elephant," they have to learn it. All of these creatures display true compassion, both for their own species and for other species (dolphins helping drowning people, gorillas caring for a small boy who fell into their zoo pen and was knocked out). I like what that one poster said a few pages back, that animals' souls (entire being) may be less complex, but are not qualitatively different from us.

 

thank you for mentioning the dolphins gelping people who are drowning, i was going to mention that myself.. further proof that animals do not react out of pure instict,
at 1 time i had a silver fox 2 cats 2 birds a chinchilla 15 rats & a snake.. instinctively the fox would have eatten them all, the cat all except the fox the snake woulda eatten the chimchilla, rats & birds..
yet, they all slept together at the foot of my bed (except the chinchilla rats & snake) the cats fox & dirds would curl up together & groom eachother, the rats would try to mate with the chinchila.. actualy they all chased the chinchila around cause he loved to run & bounce off walls.. the rats would crawl into the snakes cage & clinb all over him, the birds would kiss the cats & fox & even ride on theyre backs..& they did all thjis on theyre own..by choice, i never even attempted to teach them to get along..they just did out of free will....oh yea when i took the fox for a walk in the park (oops i mean when she took me..since ui cant make a fox go anywhere, sometimes they would walk you in a figure 8 for an hour) shed get along with all the dogs there tooo..mor natural enimies
even 1 time i walked her in the woods she came acrossa family of skunks..& the skunks let me pet them..instinct only? yea right

 

I know that. That's a soul thing. What seperates us though is that we've got a spirit: Connection to G-d.
And we're made in His image.

I already said it atleast a million times! Animals havesouls, that's what I keep on saying! It's a spirit they don't have!

I don't agree with evolution. Natural Selection, yes. Evolution, no.

 

pretty much.

 

I already anwered that in a previous post.

let me guess, Catholic?

 

evolution & natural selection are the same thing..natural selection causes evolution..duhhh

 

humans imagine a connection to an imaginary god..animals have real connnections to real things..who is smarter?

 

odviosly you didnt answer it in any plausable way

let me guess..brainwashed?

 

Wrong,

Natural Selection states that species change throughout time by breeding.
Woodpecker with long beak + woodpecker with long beak= lots of woodpeckers with long beaks

Evolution states that over time we were able to breed, and that all of a sudden a creature was born with perfectly functional eyes.
Amoebas+amoebas= Protozoa.

 

huh?
you have a pretty limmeted understandin your saying yes & no at the same time..yes you breed longer beeked woodpeckers--new species the long beeked woodpecker..duh

 

Exactly. That's natural selection.

'Evolution' uses natural selection, yes.

But evolution also says that the woodpeckers can get scales over time.