Esoteric, (Hidden,) Knowledge

"some sort of universal, natural will" <- how do you perform a definite action (align my will) when the direction of it is undefined? Like, what actually is this "some sort of universal, natural will" to which you are aligning your will? If you are not sure about this, then from step one the project is a failure and a hoax. How can you know this will? Does it even exist? Tao is a beautiful poetic thought; could it be just poetry? Ok, suppose it's not, then if Tao is real, then you know that the first thing to know about Tao is that as soon as you name it, it's not Tao anymore. In other words, it transcends all boundaries and definitions; how do you align your will to something like that?

Wouldn't any will at all, not only by definition always be aligned with it, or actually just BE it?

Taking an extreme example for illustration, even Hitler follows the Tao; it is impossible to go against it after all. It is all, even any illusion of "going against it" or "going with it".

When asked "is there too much evil in the world" by his student, a zen master replied "there is exactly the right amount".

If we are not careful, we may ascribe results to something which is not there, if we do not bother to care about the purported mechanics of the thing which we are claiming got us those results. You can't just say "this result is due to a magickal ceremony I performed", when you have no explanation for how your ceremony caused this result, and when in fact the prosaic explanation of it was basically everything else is the one shining brightly. You have to expend effort and strain to make the results be a product of Magick when you don't understand how magick is supposed to work, never mind whether it actually does work or not. If magick is about the results primarily, fine. Where are they? Why is it hidden? Why can't a single person show me one example of magick? Not one youtube video, not one recording or anything out there in all of Magickdom. Where is it?

Because there is no mechanism. It is wish. Sometimes wishes come true, sometimes they don't. You don't point to the times they come true, and say "see, wishing works", and explain away the times it doesn't work with "wishes work in mysterious ways". This path leads to dogma you see; you are not holding yourself and your beliefs accountable. You are excusing yourself and your methods from explanation; this is dishonesty, and the first rule of any serious spiritual or scientific endeavor, is honesty.

Also I would say that imagining that internal is a reflection of external, is dividing them; a mirror is a solid object between two things, it is a reflective barrier. There is no barrier between internal and external, because these are only human brain concepts that we invented.

How do talismans tap into archetypes? What does it mean to "tap into" an archetype? Is an archetype just an "idea"? What differentiates a "normal object" from a "talisman"? What defines a "ritual"? Can a whole person be a talisman? Can an archetype be a talisman? What are the structures of rituals? What are some examples of them? What in the ritual is doing the "tapping"?

These are basic questions that immediately leap to mind which you seem to want to pass over, perhaps because "they are too sciency". Forget science. Remember honesty. If these questions are not even attempted to be answered, the whole project is bankrupt.

 

Breathe with it.

Almost like riding in a slipstream. I'd be careful with the definition of will though because will can act against you("points of contention", as dope puts it so eloquently). "Alignment" is being aware and taking care..

Looking at the views out of the carriage windows. Get on, get off, change direction... train's easier than walking.

 

Yes, on a relative scale, everything is Tao. But there's still a relative world, and if you want to maximize your success, you start to become conscious of the movements, of the pendulum swings of the Tao. The expansions and contractions. You no longer are unconsciously victim to its movements, but are AWARE of them which naturally empowers you. This is applying your will to natural will.

I already tried to say that I personally AM interested in the mechanics behind manifestation. Which is why I'm interested in the blending of Science and Magick. It's hidden for various reasons. "The lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of Understanding".

Regarding honesty..."Know Thy Will" is one of the most important things.

I was only pretending that they are reflections because I was being open to whether one agreed with that or not. To say they are reflections of each other can be the same thing as the fact that they are in fact one. It's like trying to distinguish that it's a mistake to say that heads and tails oppose each other, as it is actually one coin. Well, that's already understood, but I'm only "pretending" any of this because I wasn't sure how many people would actually agree that Internal and External are One. I was being hypothetical.

Talismans tap into archetypes via recognizing the power of symbols and how much that universal archetypes are within all humans from all ages. (Things such as the Hero, King, Magician, etc.)...getting in touch with these can awaken the impersonal nature of them within your unique personality and human vessel.

Archetypes are a pretty accepted thing at this point in history. It makes complete sense how certain symbols, characters, and images would remain latent and hidden within each human being, no matter what side of the Hemisphere and no matter what age or era. The subconscious is crucial. Do you completely deny and reject all Psychology?

Talismans can be anything one chooses one to be. Anything that represents either a personal or universal symbol to meditate upon can be used as a talisman.

Can a whole person be a talisman? Sure, but that right away kind of gives me Voodoo vibes. It's best not to impose ill intent on others, so right away I would be curious as to why would one use a person as a talisman, unless it were some sort of mutual sex-magick type of ritual.

Yes, Tarot cards show many archetypes that can be used as talismans.

One's consciousness is the one doing the tapping in a ritual. Look into different magickal grimoires for examples of specific rituals and their wide variety of structures.

So you would agree that there is no separation between external and internal...so once again I ask, if there is literally NO SEPARATION between internal and external, then why wouldn't Magick work? The only step further to take from the realization that there is no separation between internal and external is to Do What Thou Wilt...which means to DO YOUR WILL. A ritual is included in this, but not necessarily limited to it. Magick is the mixture of ritual with daily living. It's not just one or the other.

Of course, you keep making the argument that it's only the doing and that the ritual is merely wishing. But how can you really even distinguish the doing from the ritual? It's all One doing. There is no separation between internal and external. Do you also feel that meditation has no benefit to mind, body, and psyche? If so, I am happy to post many of the latest Scientific findings on the actual physical benefits of meditation, since you're so Science oriented. Ritual I would say is just a step further, sort of an applied meditation.

 

Writer and Cat are both gonna hate this... (and Fierce Flower hates everything)


Magick=Religion


Simple as that... even though Magick can get pretty complex and religion is usually follow the leader.

Faith is the same as Will.

Ritual is Prayer.

A crucifix or St.Christopher metal is a talisman. (note: in the Roman Catholic Church, it's just a chunk of metal until it's "Blessed" ie... Ritual and applied Will plus some "Holy Water" done by a priest... "Magician")


Does a St. Christopher metal actually stop car crashes from happening? By itself, No. If the person owning one "realizes" it every time he get's in the car, it can... Is it the metal? Was it "God"? Or is it the person? ("realize" being used as a term referencing "Will")



Cat is going "No it's not, I hate religion"

Writer is going "But you can't measure that"


Bear with me for a minute or two.

I'm a Wizard... (Cat= "Oooh, Ahhh") (Writer= "Bullshit") (thedope="laughing") (Fierce Flower=hating more) Gotcha, but here's what I'm saying... Measurable or not Belief can cause change, in a person, and through that person, into their environment. Be this through ritual or talisman, (St. Chris metal above) or just a few words such as "God (Goddess) help me get through this" it doesn't matter. The change which may or may not be measurable is happening inside the person's psyche. The results can be amazing, "Earth Shattering", undeniable, or as is more often the case very subtle. But IF there is a change in the person's psyche the Magick happens. If there isn't the change in the person's psyche, nothing happens. Simple as that. (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, "It's all chance")

For Writer... Let us say there is a very puzzling problem for you, or some other scientist, and he's staring at pages of mathematical problem, measurements, whatever, that need to be resolved. If your psyche is "feeling" that there's no way in hell I'm going to get through this... You won't. Now, if you pray with meaning or use your "lucky pencil" (again whatever), something that has given you that spark of insight in the past when facing something similar, not only can you get through it, you get through it with ease. Sometimes the solution even opens you up to deeper meaning that solves those other problems... "Why didn't I see that before?" It's the change in psyche, it's the "Tuning In" or "Tapping In".... some call it being in the "Zone"... Guess what? Being in the "Zone" is doing Magick. Simple as that.

Is it measurable? That would depend on the person and what they are doing when this happens... Say you hook a bunch of equipment up to an athlete, when he gets into that Zone and he surpasses all the other athletes you may see chemical changes, heart rate and breathing differences. But is that all there is to it? Would these changes happen if there wasn't first a change to his psyche? If another athlete matched, exactly, the heart/breathing/chemical balance could he be able to do the exact same thing? I quite doubt it... It's not that simple.

Now, we can't measure "Psyche" right now... Maybe some day we will have that ability and some of this argument may come back to haunt you. Until then saying it (Magick) doesn't exist, can't happen, it's all bullshit, is the same as burying your head in the sand or covering your eyes and going La La La.... As a scientific person you should be one of the first to think "What if?" Be open minded... Isn't that what it's all about? This doesn't mean you believe without proof, it means you don't disbelieve just because there isn't any. Especially if you follow any form of "Religion" or "Spirituality" now... as it has been mentioned, many scientists do have some "faith" based belief system.



For Cat... You are not going to find "it" by pouring through ancient tombs and following what others say you must do... That's not where it's at, man. Listen to the language of trees, watch the flight of the birds, make your own constellations out of the stars in the nights sky. Realize you may never fly, but you sure as hell can drop to all fours and run like a Cat... Pay more attention to what your Will tells you than what someone else tells you to do with your Will. Yes the past is a good reference but what you are trying to change is going to happen in the future. You will get there someday, have faith in that. And most important, when trying to bring something forth or manipulate a situation through Ritual, remember the "Butterfly Effect"... Don't ask for too much.



Wizard, out...

 

If Magick amounts to nothing more than being in the zone, then I will never call it "magick", as that is a bloody awful name. It implies something supernatural, it implies something exotic, secret, and powerful. Me feeling good because I'm wearing my luck underwear, and therefore my day goes well . .. yeahhhhh . . .that still doesn't make my lucky underwear a "talisman" nor the act of wearing it a "ritual".

This terminology is ridiculous. It is a need to have something "magical" and "special" in the most mundane of self-suggestion and basic psychological principles. If we have come to the point where we are just arguing semantics now, and this is truly what you mean by magick, then this has all been a colossal waste of time (in its surface intentions).

Ps, a medal of st christopher will NEVER make your drive safer. Ever. Guarranteed. Count on it. Bet your life on it. Won't work. If it helps to remind you to do things like "check blind spot", fine, then it is a bloody memory aid, not a talisman, not a hunk of metal that a saint in christian heaven is channeling his powers into.

 

Change in Psyche... For the believer it's magick, or Faith, or some Saint keeping him safe. The result is the same. If you read carefully I said it's not the metal itself.

 

I figured it would all be to simple to grasp...


Hidden knowledge is quite often hidden in plain sight.

 

Your hidden knowledge does not appear to be so hidden at all. You can call doing things that make your life better "magick" and "rituals" and the objects that you use "talismans" if it floats your boat, but you're going to confuse a whole lot of people and also cause others to think you're daft, when they are doing all of those exact same things, and not even bothering to name them because they are so basic.

So when you put water on to boil, and set a kitchen timer on for 5 minutes to remind you to come back when it's boiled, is setting the timer a "ritual" and the timer is a "talisman" in order to MaGiCkLy bOiL wAtEr? :\

 

Again, your attitude is what is lacking here. If you simply don't jive with rituals and Magick, then that's fine. It's its own form of self-expression, therapy, way of life, etc. If you don't like it, then whatever.

It's all about the notion that one's consciousness does have an effect on physical reality. This is the crux. If you disagree with this notion then I ask you get very specific of why.

Rituals can take on more enhanced forms. Such as a rock concert. Jim Morrison knew with his entire being that what he was doing was Ritual. If he had the attitude that you have, I guarantee he wouldn't have been as successful in his endeavors while alive.

 

How can Internal and External be one thing and yet focusing your will is somehow just all bullshit? Such a stubborn, Taurus attitude, to be quite honest.

 

Internal and external are one thing, and yet when I urinate, it doesn't rain.

 

Not to be disrespectful, China, but look where Jim's magick got him at a pretty young age.

 

Focusing your will via Magick is about practical things that are possible in physical reality. I can't jump to the moon either. Rituals are about focusing and changing your vibration towards your goals and expressions in life. If this doesn't resonate for you then it doesn't resonate for you.

 

well, we can all affect what happens in our lives with our own vibrations....sometimes others want to be obstacle courses, though.....

 

Taurus, no matter what I say, you are going to have the same stubborn attitude. If I gave you a guitar, and you simply felt that music was bullshit for some reason, and I kept telling you all the ins and outs of playing guitar, but you still felt like it's bullshit, you're definitely not going to get anywhere, no matter what guitar it is.

 

Writer... What is the difference between your "magic underwear, a St. Christopher medal, and some "scary" talisman with ruins and symbols you don't understand?

 

I would say that there is essentially no difference^ because the tools are secondary and like you said, one's Consciousness is primary. What one puts into the tool is what is important. The tools are part of the Prima Materia and your Consciousness is equivalent to the Stone in my opinion. It's what it is that charges and adds essence to the physical matter. This is the gift of a human. Magick is about being extra aware of your energy and how you put it into a space. A ritual is a means for creating a Sacred Space.

 

Is this "sacred space" environmental or perceptual?

 

i.e. do we create a "sacred space" out of a non sacred environment, or do we already inhabit that space and the ritual is only a catalyst of awareness of that space.


I don't buy all of this grounding and shielding from psychic attack crap that comes with a lot of the new age witchcraft, it's running from your shit. Not saying that's what you're practising Cat, I just felt the urge to add that.

 

http://youtu.be/oA8R3WT6HOc