Environmentalists just don't want you to play outside

Discussion in 'The Environment' started by Fueled by Coffee, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

    This seems to be the stereotype of the environmental extremest these days and that's how I view a lot of them. Do you agree?

    I've grown to believe the vast majority of people who call themselves environmentalists are pseudo-intellectuals are actually trying to do everything they can to keep humans from playing outside.

    They lobby for bans on:
    -horseback riding
    -gold prospecting
    -ATV riding
    -Skiing and snowboarding (they keep ski resorts from opening or expanding)

    Now to be fair, there are already laws in place regarding the what you can and cannot do in regards to these activities. These laws are there to protect the environment from careless behavior. But there are seriously people trying to push these regulations even further into not even allowing these activities to happen.

    They seem to have a sick twisted view that nature is for animals and plants only, and the city is for people only. It makes sense in a way as they're too busy sipping their Starbucks lattes in their high-populated urban dwellings as they distance themselves far away from the natural world. They claim how much they love mother nature, yet many never venture off outdoors as many of them are too scared to get their feet dirty, or their phobia of insects and mosquitoes.

    I'm a conservationist and i do care about our planet. I do think that the environment should be cared for. But because of what most environmentalists have done to ignorantly wreck outdoor recreation, I do not wish to call myself an environmentalist. Environmentalists are similar to feminists; I agree that men and women should have equal opportunities in academics and the workforce without discrimination, but some feminists are so extreme they feel that society should be matriarchal and women should have more privileges.
  2. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

    Hunting as recreation...sick

    Fishing; is it really fun proving your smarter than a fish?

    Horsback riding; do you know what it means to 'break' a horse? there was a time where beasts of burden were necessary, now it's just cruelty to enslave a beast for you personal pleasure.

    Gold prospecting; yeah I don't want you muddying up my favorite rec spot with your fucking dredge pump.

    Atv riding; If you and your redneck buddys didn't litter the countryside with your trash and beer cans and otherwise shred off-trail there wouldn't be an issue

    Camping; no ones preventing you from camping, but if you want to camp in roadless areas, your gonna have to get out of your truck to do it. boo hoo you might have to actually get fit to do that

    Skiing; good lord there are plenty of fucking ski resorts

    I won't even address your feminist bs, you're obviously spewing with no fact to back anything

    Fuck your rant
  3. LetLovinTakeHold

    LetLovinTakeHold Cuz it will if you let it

    ...the same to you.

    Thanks for illustrating his point though
  4. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

    you might be a redneck^^^obviously dumb as fuck boozer with no rebuttal

    These are just my opinions, I don't pretend to speak for these environmental lobbyists you purport...c'mon OP, howzabout you come up with some real examples instead of aping your favorite right-wing talk show hosts hyperbole and I'll take them on point by point..:smoking:
  5. sunfighter

    sunfighter Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

    No, it seems you completely don't get the concept of preserving the environment for future generations.
  6. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

    Sounds good.

    I'll start by explaining a few things: the stereotypes about the grande-mocha-chino-lowfat-chai-latte sipping elitist, urban dwelling, afraid to get their shoes dirty, enviro-fascist comes from my experiences living in downtown Portland. I love the city greatly but the attitudes of these yuppy hipster scum I've encountered regularly. Tell them to tie a square knot or shoot a rifle and they won't know what to do.

    I've also lived in hick areas too. Which might explain why I'm an outdoorsy person. I grew up watching my favorite hiking areas get bulldozed for suburbia sprawl. I earned a bachelors degree in Environmental Science with a biology focus. I was also a forest fire fighter for one summer. It was the best job I ever had.

    Sick as in disgusting? or sick as in cool?
    Considering the fact that predatory animals like the wolf and the grizzly are now extinct from California's wilderness. This brings up the problem of overpopulation of prey animals. I'm not much of a hunter I'll admit. I've been duck hunting once in my life and had a good time. But many hunters are activists in preserving land to keep it in natural and wild and away from agriculture and logging. Natural land = better hunting grounds. The laws are pretty clear about hunting in and out of season. I'll also add that one of the first conservationists in the United States was a hunter, got his face carved in a mountain, and his name was Teddy Roosevelt.

    Would you say pet owners use their pets as slaves for personal pleasure too?

    It's like how PETA is against owning animals for companionship or seeing eye dogs for the blind. Lets say PETA wins and make everyone set their animals free. Guess what'll happen: they'll all die because they have been domesticate for so long they won't be able to fend for themselves.

    where to begin....

    Do you even know how rivers work? They erode at hillsides and landscapes wash away sediment. Muddy rivers are a natural process and quite common. Mud gets into a river, mud settles down. Simple as that.

    How about here in my gold dredging thread I made earlier, I'll reference it here: http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=469264&f=39

    To paraphrase:
    -my tailing piles and turbidity stream supplies kick lots of macro invertebrate for fish to feed on. When they see me dredging, they swim up behind for the all-you-can-eat buffet.

    -Gold dredges are great at removing lead and mercury from waterways

    -Gold dredging season happens in the summer time when no fish eggs are laid. The left-over sediment piles from the tailings make it easier for salmon to lay eggs.

    -Dredging rivers removes excess eutrophication from high nutrient-rich pollutants by stirring up the excess algae buildup.

    Hey looks like we both agree on something. Littering is an issue for me too. I once picked up my friend's cigarette butt when he threw it on the ground. I said, "Hey man, you dropped this." He said, "Um, I know, I did that on purpose." And I say "I know dingus, you better take care of it properly and not litter your shit."

    I don't own an ATV, but I borrowed my friend's when I lived out in the sticks. Didn't like taking off the trail because of rollover risks.

    But like everything else, it only takes one dumb redneck to break the rules, and go off the trail and get the enviro-politicans all riled up and ruin it for everyone.

    I just don't like how there's fewer places to go camping now than there were 20 years ago. For every one reckless fuck who breaks the rules, another camping area gets blocked off and another law gets signed. It ain't fair for the rest of us.

    A location perspective thing isn't it...

    Another personal example is I grew up in an area that had a small ski area. the company wanted to expand the mountain and build more ski runs to compete with larger areas. The environmental lobby stopped them saying the logging will cause more environmental harm and mess up the water ways. So all efforts were blocked. But the logging companies still clear-cut all over those mountains later on. Gee, I wonder how much environmental disaster THAT is causing for minimal commercial gain!

    Yeah, there's ignorance on both sides.
  7. Driftwood Gypsy

    Driftwood Gypsy Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    All I need is to simply frolick in the woods, maybe with shoes on.
    Not good bringing gas guzzling smoking machinery into the wilderness. Be gentle. Try running, tree climbing, rock climbing, hiking, meditating, swimming, yoga, etc.
  8. Dancing til Dawn

    Dancing til Dawn Senior Member

    keep drinking your coffee which fucks the rain forest -
  9. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

    I know you don't need machinery to enjoy wilderness. But I just don't understand why so many politicians feel a need to dictate what you can and can't do in the great outdoors.

    Tropical populations going to work on coffee plantations is fucking up the rainforest? Ok, I guess we can also tell them not to inhabit the rainforest, or have any resource-based economy, keep them living in grass huts, all for the sake of protecting the rainforest. Tell them that, I'm sure it will go over very well.
  10. Logan 5

    Logan 5 Confessed gynephile

    A month back I found a few letters from way back when, when I was under constant attack by the BLM for...
    Picking up litter AND camping out.

    They threatened me with arrest.
    They threatened to take my truck and flatbed trailer.
    They made lots of threats.
    But they NEVER had to balls to follow through.
    They didn't then and they sure as hell ain't got any now.

    And if I want to camp out on BLM land, fuck'em.
    That's my land;
    Your land;
    EVERYBODYS land.
    Not the BLM's.

    They're just the fucking caretakers. WE are the owners.
  11. GardenGuy

    GardenGuy Senior Member


    The Bureau of Land Management posted some policies that sound pretty reasonable, allowing dispersed camping in general. Was there some specific violation? Taking a motor vehicle to a Wilderness area? Scaring livestock or wild animals by camping close to a water tank?

    BLM's overall policy is to allow dispersed camping on all the lands it administers with the following conditions and exceptions:

    Dispersed camping is generally allowed on public lands in New Mexico for no more than a period of 14 days within any period of 28 consecutive days. The 14-day limit may be reached either through a number of separate visits or through 14 days of continuous overnight occupation during the 28-day period. After this time period, you must relocate to another site at least 25 miles away. The purpose of this is to prevent damage to sensitive resources caused by continual use of any particular areas.
    Camping is prohibited within 900 feet of any developed water source such as a guzzler or watering trough so that the water is accessible to wildlife and livestock. Please do not park your vehicles near these waters or take any actions that would disturb wildlife or livestock from using these waters.
    Campfires must be attended at all times. Campers will be held liable for fire suppression costs if their fire gets out of control.
    When using a motorized vehicle for camping access within a “Limited Use Area,” limit your parking and vehicle-based camping to no more than 300 feet from an established road.
    Camping is permitted within all units of the National Wilderness Preservation System administered by the BLM in New Mexico. However, all motorized and mechanized vehicles and equipment are strictly prohibited in these areas.
    Individual BLM Field Offices may have additional or supplemental special camping rules or guidelines. Please call our Field Offices or visit our individual recreation websites for this information.
  12. Logan 5

    Logan 5 Confessed gynephile

    Nothing like that at all GG. We’re talking about between ‘86 to ‘92, or thereabouts.

    I averaged 3-5 days, then go home. In that 3-5 days I would stay in one place no longer than 2-3 days, then find another site not close by because once I set camp I was out hiking and seeing the country. So we’re not talking about staying in one place for 14 days.

    Never been, or had, a problem with that.

    Same thing, never been a problem with that or had one. More often than not I take either a compressed fuel like my Jet Boil stove or perhaps my Coleman propane stove. On occasion I might have a fire, but it’s rare (the fucking smoke always blows my direction and I get sick and tired of the fucking smoke burning my eyes or making me cough {damn I hate that shit!}).

    Never had a problem with this. I always park in either designated parking areas or clearly withing the 300' limit (I prefer no futher than 30-50). If I camp away from my truck I make it a point to hike in. And I have always brought out more than I took in. I pack out my litter along with what I find. And even then there are occasions where I find more than I can carry.

    Back then I never saw any notices or signs designating areas off limits.

    That is rare. It can be done, but most usually the rules are nationwide.

    I searched for the letters, and I can’t find them right now. I remember the fella that wrote the letter to Sen. Tim Worth (keep in mind the time frame) made comments about me “...living in mining camp buildings for his (my) emotional well-being....”. Which never happened. I stayed out of those buildings, and never camped out in areas that had them (with exception for a couple instances in USFS bounds, even then I never “lived” in any of the buildings). Like others, I’d explore and check the buildings out. Except for one significant problem- all the places on BLM land that I camped out on, there were NO buildings period. Nothing. Nada. Not a damn one of them.

    If I can find those letters I’ll scan them and put what is said into text (after redacting the personally identifying information) and share it.

    At the second to last BLM community meeting there were a couple guys there that kept babbling some worthless garbage about the BLM and their conspiracy. I was stern yet courteous- That fella has a beef, well so do I. Both are old news and don’t need rehashed. New people are in office, in the local BLM, state and national. If I can get over what the BLM did to me, so can he. Get a life and get over it.

    Now, however, I still see lots of problems. The local rec planner has his head up his ass. He wants me get him a letter from my doctor about my physical impairments and if the doctor feels I can do the work. Showing me that he doesn’t know anything about the volunteer program, because I’ve done volunteer work before and I remember the application one fills out. A letter like that goes too far.
  13. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

    To a degree, you're right.

    At the same time, not at all.

    Your examples mix up things that have very important differences. If you're not actually mining for gold, and doing a legit and geographically focused operation, it's very destructive, and causes horrible erosion so somebody can get a few cents worth of yellow stuff from a highly un-economical deposit, or lack thereof. Some people who like offroading are respectful, most are total jackoffs and fuck everything up. Just for example. And then you put that next to camping and horseback riding?

    You don't seem to be trying to make a very honest argument.

    I'm all for laws that make it harder to fuck things up, and that put serious penalties in place for doing so. I'm also for laws that make the outdoors more accessable for people to enjoy, so long as it's respectful and doesn't ruin it. I don't know if that makes me an environmentalist, or what. But I do know that your comparison of people who want to save the environment, to feminists (who are basically nasty self-centered people with no other way to get attention, at least the modern ones) is low and designed to polarize things more than they already would be in this type of discission.

    Bed time, while I'm almost being nice.
  14. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

    If you do your research and understand where gold deposits are most frequent to occur, you won't be wasting your time searching in gold poor areas.


    gold deposits are far more likely to be in the dotted areas.

    Further, I'm mostly talking about small scale dredging. It is far more sustainable than the alternative: large corporate excavations where they tear up mountainsides and use cyanide to dissolve their tailing piles. Moving gravel around the bottom of a river has little if any harm on the ecosystem. Here in the west, Arnold Schwarzenegger signed a dredging moratorium and Jerry Brown signed it again. Now my home state is contemplating doing the same thing because the ignorant environmentalists think any human activity in the outdoors is destructive. They say the muddy waters behind the sluice is killing fish. If muddy water kills native fish, that species would have been killed off by natural selection long ago. Gold will always be in demand regardless the extraction method. Gold helped make the American west what it is today. And it's ironic the golden state banned motorized mining.

    I understand there's lots of ignorant and disrespectful activity that happens outdoors. But i don't think trails should be closed or restricted to responsible recreationists because one person disrespected the rules. It ain't fair.

    Yes I put off roading and gold prospecting up there with camping ad horseback riding. They don't like seeing horse shit on trails and they don't like people owning horses in the first place. I've also seen plenty of camping sites get closed off and enforced by law. Can't camp close to certain waterways no more. Can't have campfires in certain places. Etc.

    I'm sick of people who don't understand the outdoors trying to make the rules for the outdoors. It happens all the time.

    I'll admit my feminist comparison is pretty weak though.
  15. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

    "if an obviously harmful condition caused by humans is harmful, it doesn't matter, because it already would have been harmful"

    What the fuck are you talking about?

    Sluces are very destructive, by nature. Go get a pan and swirl all day, IDGAF, but slues are so obviously destructive in many ways that you seem pretty fucking stupid to walk in and say that they're simply not, because you want gold. Yeah, industrial mining is damaging...... and? So is fucking up a local waterway for no good reason.

    What are you even talking about, with "they"? WHO does not like people owning horses? If your horse is shitting all over a trail that people frequently walk on, yeah you're an asshole.... go kick it off, simple.

    You don't understand bans on campfires? REALLY? Are you fucking stupid?

    You're making things up about environmentalists, it sounds like people like individual talking about liberals. But even so, you're convincing me that I should be firmly against your particular outdoor aspirations. And this is coming from someone who likes things with motors, likes camping, likes things with fires, etc.

    You just sound like you're whining that they realized that people like you fuck everything up. It was okay to fuck it up when we settled california, why can't we fuck it up now? On that note, it seems like an awful long time since we've hung any chinese laundrymen -- fucking environmentalists!
  16. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon


    A metal tray that water runs through. Like this one. How so?

    I've been over this before. Maybe you should read back a page.

    Perhaps you mean dredge. I'll have you know a 2"-6" gold dredge is great for cleaning up metal waste and litter from waterways. It's also wonderful for removing toxic material like lead fishing weights and mercury (which comes from amalgamy practices done in the old frontier, along with eroding cinnabar). Scientific studies show a dredge collects 98% of mercury that collects in the sluice. The remaining gets dissolved into methylmercury by microbes.

    Fair enough. There are certain trails that horses are not allowed on and should remain that way. But if you're on a trail that allows horses you should know what to expect. I don't even own horses to be honest. I'd sooner own a mountain bike. So I can sorta agree with you there. However I won't be an activist to take their horseback riding priviliges away because I don't like horses. That is called being an asshole.

    Lets be real here. It Depends on the location and season. Some laws are too strict. Some places banned campfires on the ocean beach where fire danger is none. Other places it's pretty reasonable. But closing down popular areas because of one person's negligence is still unfair no matter how you slice it.

    And it sound to me like you're pulling assumptions outta your ass about me. I don't fuck everything up. Heaven forbid I wouldn't wanna be that one negligent fucker who fucks it up and gets asshole politicians to punish everyone else on my behalf. I clean up after myself and I hope you do to.
  17. Logan 5

    Logan 5 Confessed gynephile

    As for gold mining, BTDT and enjoyed it. And there are some asses out there that have no respect for Mother Earth and the many gifts she provides us.
  18. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

    It sounds like you mostly want to sluce for gold.....

    It reads like you posted a picture, but it's not working for me. A sluce as I know of it is a long trough, or possibly a box design of some sort, that you shovel large amounts of the bottom of a stream into, and then run a lot of water over, with the goal of washing off all the lighter mud and gravel. It's a natural part of it's function that it causes nasty erosion, it will silt up the lower stream, muddy everything (not good for animals OR plants), and involves digging out large parts of the stream and/or bank. How isn't that totally horrible for the area?

    And yes, most of these things can be done without damaging anything, the problem is assholes who do them in damaging ways. One fire, especially where I live, results in dozens or hundreds OF THOUSANDS of acres burnt, possibly hundreds of thousands of livestock and other animals burnt (often not to death, but to die slowly), and sometimes structures and people burnt. Just for example. I have no problem with responsible use of land, that fits the land and weather in question, but the laws are made to stop the worst or stupidest (or just most ignorant) people from doing harm.

    It's hard to make a law that says "if we don't like how you ride horses, atv's, have campfires, or look for gold, THEN it's illegal". And for good reason, because then if the ranger doesn't like your bumper sticker, you're in trouble.
  19. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

    I tried to upload pictures on here twice in two different posts. I used my iPad and they seemed to work there. Now that I have my laptop fixed, I can see that it's not working.

    Here's the first picture I tried to post when I said:
    And here's the sluice I was talking about. [​IMG] And you're correct on its functions.

    But my favorite tool is the dredge which vacuums gravel off the bottom and runs it through a sluice.

    That's a common misconception. But the truth is silt getting poured into rivers happens all the time. Like a dead tree falling into a river for example. If a native species can't survive unclear waters, it would'a been killed off years ago.

    It's also misunderstood that the silt buildups are bad for salmon nesting, dredges destroy nesting grounds. The truth is salmon spawn in the winter months when river dredging is strictly prohibited (as it should be, plus the water is too freaking cold). And the fry have all hatched when dredging season opens for the summer months. Plus all the loose sand and sediment from the tailing piles left behind are easy places for salmon to lay their eggs.

    The western mining alliance explains things better than I can:

    Here they explain turbidity of sluice mining:

    Turbidity is simply the temporary
    clouding of the water by silt disturbed while
    moving gravel. A US EPA study on a 10”
    suction dredge operation in Alaska found
    that turbidity levels returned to normal
    within 160 meters of the dredge [Ref. 24]
    The 1994 California Environmental Impact
    Report [Ref. 21] found the effects from
    turbidity are “localized and temporary.”
    While acknowledging that the local effects
    can be significant, the report goes on to state
    that these effects dissipate rapidly and are
    gone once the dredge shuts down. Turbidity
    is simply the muddying of the water.
    Muddy water clears rapidly downstream

  20. This is why I wish there were still places like Alaska a long time ago with lots of wilderness for 2 cents an acre. I remember one time I built a small rain shelter to sleep under out of dead logs and the like and some park ranger got all pissed and told me to leave or face consequences.

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