Environmentalists are annoying

us and other living creatures, so yeah that's kinda that jackass view of things: "lets just keep at it, were gonna die any ways, who cares if we bring a buncha the other species along with us"

not only that, but the fact that we could probably end up like mars,a hell hole waste planet, by your reasoning. think more into these kinda things before you post

 

Guys, i agree with OP. For some reason i cant come up with the right wording to say what i am thinking

 

There is too much stupid in this thread

 

This is exactly true. The little "commune"/"survivalist" coops that are self sufficient are going to be over run by hoards of milita types who don't know how to take care of themselves, but do know how to use a weapon.

The farther from civilization you can hide, the better your chances for survival are, but they will eventually find you.

A much better idea than isolating a smaller group on a self-sustaining farm, is to welcome in as many people as you can. Teach them how things work and make them part of an ever-expanding cooperative; institute a fair system of self-government. Become large enough that the bands of wandering militia will leave you alone.

Of course, when you're in charge of one of those places, being a bull-headed control freak with no concept of public relations will pretty much insure failure.

 

You really wanted to get that out... okay...

We definitely disagree on what type of place will survive...

If you think welcoming in everyone who shows up is going to make you safe, you should perhaps look through history at the countries that cave in during a war without a fight and welcome in those who believe might is right. Well, ask the survivors...

In a perfect world where people were kind and helpful and co-operative, you would be 100% correct... unfortunately, we do not, and will not ever experience such a place.

Open your arms to all and your arms are going to get ripped off and fed to you by the jackals of the world.

 

I'm curious... what are you going to do to protect your people from these roving bands before you get large enough that they leave you alone?

Start an aggressive poster campaign to convert the militia to your cause?

Wake the trees and convince them to fight for you?

Stand before the mob and explain to them how wrong it is that they are about to rape and kill you and all your friends??

I know I sure wouldn't want a bull-headed control freak around at a time like that...

 

It's just a planet, theres a billion more...

 

true rude, but not all of us have a spaceship to get off this one... and I'm sure you don't have enough room in your's for everyone...

 

I did want to get it out, and in a place where it couldn't be censored. Thanks for responding.

You obviously have an outlook that says people are mostly bad, with just a few good ones mixed in. My outlook says that people are mostly good with just a few bad ones mixed in.

When civilization breaks down, for whatever reason, a few bad people with an agressive attitude can control a whole lot of good people and coerce them into doing bad things.

Now, if someone has an established eco-farm/commune/whatever, and it's running well, then they are in a unique position to save the good people who would otherwise have no choice but to join in with the hoards who are controlled by the bad people, when things fall apart.

Those good people are going to be looking for some way to survive. When they come to a settlement (maybe your settlement) with "heads on the spears" at the front gate to them away (as you suggested), they're going to have no choice but to join with the hoards or die.

When the hoards get bigger than the settlement, good bye settlement. End of story.

If you invite people in and maintain a form of protocol for dealing with troublemakers, you can police your own ranks and avoid corruption from within. If you turn people away, as you suggested you would in your journal, you are only forestalling the inevitable destruction of your settlement.

Strength is going to be the only law when civilization collapses. A small community of survivalists is not going to have enough strength to stand alone. You said so, yourself. You will be forced to either trust people or face your own certain extinction.

You know, just because people don't want to give up their lives in order to help you build your utopia, doesn't make them bad people. Slamming the door in their face when they need help and could help you to save your hard work, that's just sour grapes on your part and it's also biting your own nose to spite your face.

You called me a moron and a jackass for suggesting that. That's fine, I've been called names by experts. However, I would like to point out that anyone who is so unsure of himself that he feels the need to delete reasonable comments from his journal and then post a rant about it, rather than respond rationally, well... he's not going to garner much respect from anyone, much less cooperation and support.

 

heh...
It will take as much time for the militia hoards to develope as it does for any other group. When the catastrophe comes, people will be casting about in every direction for help and protection. Every person that is turned away from a place that is able to offer help will become another foot soldier in the hoard, simply because they have no other alternative. Every person who is offered help will become an ally against the hoard.

At the outset, there may be people who will show their true colors by raping and pillaging, but they're going to be alone or in small numbers. It will take time for them to organize. Those who are decent people will have the same amount of time to organize. A good leader would not put heads on spears at the gate and turn away all who seek shelter.

There will be need for good and wise leaders who have compassion. The control freaks will likely be the leaders of the roaming hoards.

I'm curious as to how you would protect your 40 acres from them, if and when that time comes, if you will not increase your ranks.

 

First off, I have had many threads and places here over the years where we could have talked about these things, and you chose not to, until in my journal you decide to make judgements about me, when you have never met me, that got you removed from my journal, not just censored, let's be really clear...

As for the rest, so, you read my journal where I said those people who chose not to come help build it, would not be welcome there, because there is no place for leaches in a settlement, whether that is a co-operative or otherwise. At no point in time did I say everyone would be turned away, at no point in time did I even suggest it.

If you would have asked, instead of jumping to conclusions and making accusations and judgements, you would have found out that if someone came in peace and worked alongside the rest of us, then they would be welcome, and those that came in and tried to leach off the rest would be the ones with their heads on spears at the gate, perhaps even as a consensus amongst the members that were there...

But you didn't ask.... did you?

So, I will stand by my judgements of you based on the assumptions and accusations you made, and that is that you are a moron and a jackass.

 

You are on crack aren't you??? The hoard will be in existence within the first week after a catastrophe... they need no training or organization to be a hoard...

You really are clueless if you think that was anywhere close to being a true or accurate statement...

I see zero sense in continuing this convo with you...

 

So I get the last word? Cool! We'll see if you're as good as your word.

I see that you prefer to make disparaging comments and baseless statements rather than offer any real substantive reasoning behind your postulation.

What will be in existence within the first week will be confused good people and confused bad people... more good than bad, though. That's the optimist in me. Neither one of those groups is going to be organized, initially. The bad folks are going to need to find each other, too, in order to build a power base. Do you suppose they'll start an aggressive poster campaign or wake the trees or stand in front of good people and tell them how they should be raping and killing each other?

You think it takes no organization to manage a hoard? Someone has to be in charge. Someone has to make decisions for them. Someone has to work out logistics and make plans. Otherwise, they're just a bunch of random people milling around like everyone else. It only gets easy for them when they have overpowering and coordinated numbers - and overpowering numbers take time to accumulate.

Yes, of course there will be those who will take advantage, eventually. However, there is a much greater opportunity to organize a much larger number of good people, since there will be so many more of them. And, they'll be looking for guidance, because they won't really know what to do. This is where a good leader would take advantage of the potential to get them organized.

The difference here, is that you seem to prefer to believe the worst of people, possibly because they didn't take you up on your offer. Perhaps, and this may be hard for you to believe, they didn't have faith in you. Your plan may have been outstanding, but you, yourself, may have been the drawback. It may be easier to call others fools and morons than it is to acknowledge faults in yourself.

You may well have posted your fingers bloody over the years, but I could not have responded to any of them, because I didn't see any of them. I haven't been on the forums for years. What I did see was your journal entry and what I responded to was your own words. The opinion that I offered was in direct response to the words you typed, and only that. I don't need to know every detail about a car to know if it has a flat tire and I don't need to know everything about you to know whether you're speaking sense or nonsense.

When you say things that amount to "no one came to help me with my commune, so screw you all! Your heads will be on spears at the gate, if you come now..." That pretty much says it all.

You didn't say anything about people who came in peace. What you said was, in essence: If you didn't come to help before the shit hit the fan, we'll kill you if you come after.

And what I said is, hey... you are essentially kissing your own ass goodbye if you refuse to increase your numbers. You said yourself that the communes and cooperatives wouldn't stand against the hoard. When I say it, you call me a moron and a jackass. You can't have it both ways, you know.

You still haven't said how you would keep the wolves at bay.

 

My words;

Your portrayal of my words;

That last part is at least true, just not in regards to the things I have said, but nice try.

You went through my post, read what you wanted to in it and then told me why I was wrong for saying things that I didn't say, and you wonder why I deleted you as a waste of time and space in my journal?

You then jump to another thread to try to do the same thing?

So far, everything you have tried to say I said, has been wrong, at best, mis-interpreted past belief.

The things that you have said regarding society, are based in fantasy. All a person has to do is look at places like New Orleans after Katrina to see what would happen. Even with it being a fairly localized event and not a worldwide one, and with the support of the rest of the country on the way, violence spiked, gangs took up fortified positions, rapes, burglaries and assaults happened... and this was a short pause in normal life, not a collapse. Even if you wished to make some claim that N.O. was a special case for whatever reason, there are numerous examples of the mob mentality taking over in times of disaster. They don't need to train, or organize to destroy and spread, in fact, if those two things were present (training and organizing) the danger would be much less. Mobs cannot be reasoned with, organizations can.

And as for whether my word is good or not, in regards to;

Once again, you mis-interpret what I said in order to try to come off as something you are not...

I said;

Notice that nowhere in there does it say anything along the lines of, I will not post again, or I will now give you the last word.

It simply says that I saw no point in continuing the convo at that point in time. My intentions were to leave it, but your repeated misquoting of what I said and misrepresenting my position, changed my mind on that.

 

I dunno... when you put my words up, side by side with your words, it still looks to me like I paraphrased you pretty accurately. I wasn't going to copy your journal to this conversation, but I'm glad that you did. Of course, you deleted my original response, so I guess you can make any claim about it that you wish. I can't disprove it.

Both of us can come up with plenty of anecdotal "proofs" of our position. I can point to plenty of good samaritan stories and heros that would counter any gang violence, rapes and burglary stories that you might care to tell. Yes, there are bad people out there who will take advantage of a situarion. I won't even argue that point. There are also plenty of good people who do good and helpful things, too. Maybe you just listen to the news too much. The media loves to give us nothing but bad news. It sells more media that way.

However, we're not talking about a mindless mob looting a grocery store, we're talking about gangs of militia seeking out and destroying settlements in order to take the fruits of other people's labor. That takes organization. A mindless mob isn't going to find you out in the sticks. Your earlier posts in this thread show that you know exactly what kind of threat we're talking about, here.

Well good. I was hoping that you weren't one of those guys who says he's not going to discuss it anymore, only to come back time after time.

I did not quote you, I paraphrased you. You say that I misinterpreted, but you posted your own words and they still look a lot like what I paraphrased, to me. You haven't really clarified any alternative meaning. Specifically this:

Please explain how I misinterpreted you.

 

If you can't tell the difference between what I said and what you said I said, then crawl back into your crack pipe.

 

Okay, we'll leave it to the court of public opinion. If anyone cares to comment on this and popular consensus says that I have incorrectly interpreted what you have said, I will gladly "crawl back into my crack pipe." If no one cares to comment, and I don't really blame them if they don't, then I'll just consider you another paranoid survivalist hiding in the wilderness and we can end this.

 

Oh no, the moron who never actually did anything in his life besides making false accusations and attacks isn't going to like me... Breaks my heart...

As for other people chiming in... Are you really that weak willed of a creature that you need to hear what other people think to make up your own mind?

 

Jeez Tom, for a guy who whines about how I have no right to judge him because I don't know him, you sure do have a lot of opinions about what i may or may not have done in my life.
Actually, I like you just fine. You're a great source of amusement. All people who take themselves too seriously are.

As for others chiming in... it's not for the benefit of my opinion. I already gave you my opinion; you got all paranoid and deleted it. It's so you might get some more opinions on how truly whacked you sound when you post stuff like "putting heads on spears." Maybe you should read Sun Lion's post, if you haven't already deleted that one, too. If it turns out that people actually admire what you've said, I'll simply go away and leave it alone.

I wonder which of us really is the weak willed one. Maybe it's no wonder you've had such a rough time rounding up followers at your day care center. I'm sure that you're egotistical enough to believe that people see your ideas as sane and rational.

 

I have no doubt you wonder that...