Election 2004

Discussion in 'Canada' started by jiimaan, May 24, 2004.

  1. OSF

    OSF Señor ******

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    How little you know.


    Harpers ideas will only scare you if you really don't understand the real world.

    If Canada is still one of the greatest nations in the world to you than of course the mans ideas would frighten you.

    I wouldn't expect anything less.
     
  2. Thethirdbenjamin

    Thethirdbenjamin Member

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    I don't know who i'm going to vote for, i'm probible not going to

    I don't trust any of them.

    Harper-Seams crazy
    Martin-seams arrogant
    Layton-I don't know about NDP
     
  3. Mr MiGu

    Mr MiGu King of the Zombies

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    i can see why you dont know much about ndp, as they dont get as much press coverage as the others.

    the ctv website has a very good comparison of the party platforms:

    http://www.ctv.ca/mini/election2004/static/issues/issues.html
     
  4. jiimaan

    jiimaan Banned

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    Well, it's interesting that you should say that, because it's been repeatedly proven to me that neocons have a particularly distorted sense of "reality". Harper's stance on taxation, economics, U.S.-Canada relations, the military, human rights, religion etc. pretty much exemplifies this. His vision for Canada is exclusive, representing those of the vast minority--the wealthy elite (as well as those who for some reason have subscribed to neocon ideology). Harper is bad news, and I think if he gets elected PM, we are ALL going to regret it.


     
  5. OSF

    OSF Señor ******

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    First why would something have to be repeatedly proven to you?



    Isn’t once enough?



    Second neocon is a bad term. No matter what Internet ‘expert’ or shmuck came up with it, it really makes the user look silly. Sorry.



    Of course these are meant in jest with that serious lemon twist.



    Jiimaan you say that Harpers election platform is the view of the vast minority of people in Canada.



    To quote:





    The latest Ipsos-Reid poll says Martin is at 32% and Harper and his wealthy elite support at 31%. June 5th poll. Of course you accounted for that equalizing populous but you did in brackets. As a marginal difference even.



    The only marginal difference is the difference in voter opinion with regards to Martin and Harper. Don’t bother telling me wealthy elite and neocons are the ones representative of the Conservative vote. We all know that. It would be like me saying the wealthy elite and liberals are the ones subscribing to Martin’s ideas.



    There is no need to state the obvious, only the obvious need to state the real numbers. 32% to 31%. A minority either way.



    Enough of that.



    You say that the conservatives have a distorted view of reality. You are willing to back that up with comparisons to the real world, right? You know that any comparison has the nations which adopt lower corporate tax rates versus higher at a much higher rate of growth and strength of economy, right? Look at the United States of America versus Canada. At one point Canada was the fourth richest nation in the world. That was back in the seventies. Now we are steadily on the decline! We are fading into the background of history! Why? The United States of America are still the richest nation in the world. Why is that?


    I understand it, do you?

    Ireland is the greatest place in the world to live right now. They have more jobs available for both skilled and unskilled workers than in any other nation in the world. Their explanation for this? Low corporate tax rates.

    Compare that to Japan. They adopted the traditional Keynesian, sorry Canadian, view of economics and taxation and where has it got them? (If you don't already know, go look it up. But with the comments you are making you surely already know)


    Again, please explain!!! Can you?

    Of course you can, so let’s hear it! Explain to us how Martin’s high corporate tax rates are going to help this country compared to Harper’s lower ones. Please don’t bullshit cause I will call you on it.



    I guess the taxation and economics question has to wait for your explanation. But to even bother mentioning military and religion and human rights is a laugh. Please please please explain how it hurts to have no military power whatsoever. You know that the UN is relatively peaceful but they still have a military. They are lucky enough to be able to adopt a position of peace out of choice. Canada is forced into peace. Canada has no military and therefore no choice! Hell, even Denmark knows it can invade us and take land that has been ours for a hundred years!



    Religion has not been mentioned in this election. Human rights issues are on the fringe and most know that they don’t mean much in an election. (See yesterday’s National Post for why) Where it has both Martin and Harper agree. Please refer me to any quote (we need a quote and not some ass writing about how Harper wants to kill babies and such nonsense) because I have been following really closely and have yet to see one indicating inhumanity on either candidates behalf.



    I am not trying to pick a fight or anything. I have been following this election very closely and I think it is really unfair to scrutinize Harper and Harper only.



    I have the sense to scrutinize both the Liberals and Conservatives.
     
  6. jiimaan

    jiimaan Banned

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    I never said that it "has to be repeatedly proven" to me. I said that it is repeatedly proven to me. I'm not sure why you're all up in a huff about this, though.



    I don't think that this term was coined by some "Internet 'expert' or schmuck" and the suggestion that my use of the term makes me look "silly" really just does not bother me. I'll use the term when I see fit.


    Saying that his policies represent a minority of Canadians, does not necessarily mean that I think that his policies are *supported* by a minority. People will vote Conservative for a variety of reasons, but in the end, Harper's policies will only truly benefit a vast minority of them. That's what happens in the States, and that's what will happen here if he does get elected.




    Yeah, right, whatever...


    You know, I could really crush you on this matter if you really want to get into it.

    What you write is almost complete nonsense. Are you seriously suggesting that the state of Canada's economy is solely based on high corporate taxation? You have got to be kidding. Corporations are hardly burdened by high taxes, and are in fact often recipients of so-called corporate welfare.



    Feel free to move there if you think it's so great. But chances are, you'll quickly find out that what looks great on paper, doesn't necessarily mean that in reality, things are all that good. I seem to recall that it wasn't all that long ago that masses of Irish IT workers were looking for work in Canada because there were no jobs in Ireland. Now how could that be if low corporate tax rates were creating so many jobs?




    You have a remarkably naive understanding of corporate taxation, one that evidently has made you quite easily seduced by neocon spindoctoring.



    Human rights issues are certainly not "on the fringe" and they certainly can be a very important factor in an election. But seeing that you read the NP, it's not suprising that you would think this.


    I was simply replying to a post about Harper. I'm certainly no more a fan of Martin. Both are cut from the same mold.

     
  7. OSF

    OSF Señor ******

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    Jiimann, no hard feelings meant at all. I know nothing has to be repeatedly proven to you. It was just a joke. Alls I meant was, well, that. It is proven to you the first time. After that something is merely repeated. A joke, even though it was a bad one. As for the neocon name. I don’t think it accurately refers to anything more than the name of a party which doesn’t refer to the content of the conservatives minds, which I know is petty and silly, but again it was just a joke.



    Maybe we should call the liberals the autobots. Transformer generation finally votes. The slogan ‘more than meets the eye’ has never meant more!



    Either way I think it a little harsh to say that the people who support a party don’t support the fundamental thought behind it. Like you said, the difference between the parties is so marginal that calling the supporters of the corporate tax change a vast minority is difficult to do. I think so at least.



    If you want to debate the validity of the Ipsos- Reid poll please feel free. I take it for what it is worth. I understand how little it means now compared to on election day. But just for the record, the latest Ipsos- Reid poll has the Neocons at 35% and the Liberals at 31%!



    I am not suggesting that lower corporate taxation rates are solely going to change the state of the economy. There is much more involved than that. But simply put, it all begins there. Everyone knows that. I did mention that there was no need to state the obvious.



    What it comes down to is that you and I differ fundamentally on the economics issue. You have your support and I have mine. Mine is not from the CBC and government funded corporations. I am not saying yours are, but based on my assumptions of your fundamental assumptions I would wager.



    As for Ireland, I stand strong. It is as good on paper as it is in reality. Yes many people ‘were’ looking for jobs. The reason they have found them now is basically because of the lowering of corporate tax rates (and the accompanying and subsequent changes).



    You were responding to a post about Harper, so was I. But the campaign platforms differ on so little that attacks on Harper’s policy always tend to begin with the Corporations.



    And for the record, I read the National Post and the Toronto Star. I get the best (really the worst) of both worlds.
     
  8. Magical Mystery Girl

    Magical Mystery Girl Member

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    I'm leaning towards voting for NDP. I'm liking the way they think.
     
  9. jiimaan

    jiimaan Banned

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    The latest polls are quite disturbing, as they have the Conservatives in front by a couple of percentage points. It's possible that the Liberals and NDP may in fact be adversely effected by vote splitting as was the case with the PC and CA parties in the last election. Shit, we might end up with a Conservative majority if the Conservatives manage 38 to 40%.
     
  10. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

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    I have a dilema.

    A decade ago I voted the Tories into Alberta and was one of the few 'working class' people who was willing to 'take some pain now - for gain later'

    After 10 years Alberta is now one of the wealthiest provinces in Canada. Business is Booming!

    Now I asked Klein to bring the minimum wage BACK UP to where it was (considering inflation).
    You know what he said - "I think it would hurt business"
    Basically "FUCK OFF"

    So. I have every reason to vote Tory. If for no other reason than to see the arrogant plush dictators thrown out of their comfortable places.
    Indeed.. Canada is doing NOTHING but fade away into a dull obscurity and ANY change will suit me.

    BUT...

    Whats gonna happen - Corporate taxes are cut, welfare and EI get cut even more (the liberals looted the poor people already) but will anyone raise minimum wage and protect the slave-class?

    When I ask if I can have the same wages I did 10 years ago will I be told to 'Fuck off' again?

    NDP is not an option since they will take from the rich and give to the comfy bloated Unions (again.. NOTHING for the poors except a dole-lifestyle)

    Im phoning my guy today and if he tells me anything besides "YES.. I will increase wages and protection for the slave-class" then I will not only vote otherwise.. I will actively fight against him.
     
  11. jiimaan

    jiimaan Banned

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    I'll admit that I have a hard time believing what anyone of these guys say: they just say whatever during an election to get elected, but once in power, they'll do what they want. Granted, sometimes they try to do things that they promised, but get roadblocked by opposition, but for the most part, they just do what suits them. Take the provincial Liberals in Ontario for instance: people wanted the Tories gone so bad, and McGuinty played on that and made himself look like some kind of Messiah. Well, things got so good for the Liberals, that it was obvious that the Tories were going to be crushed, so just a few days before the election, McGuinty started dropping hints that he wasn't going to change all that much of what the Tories had done after all. I really wish I clipped the article that brought this to my attention. Evidently, many people didn't take note of this--but sure enough, all we've had since his election is broken promises. (If there was another provincial election right now, I think it would NDP minority with a PC opposition--the Liberals would be toast) If the Conservatives get elected, they just do what suits them, too. They'll pander to corporations, cut corporate taxes, privitize and legislate two-tier health care. Workers will have less rights, the poor will get poorer.
     
  12. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

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    Get this!

    I continue to phone any and all Conservative Party numbers and so far - no reply or answer from their end.

    Now get THIS... I phone to get a registration card. Lady tells me that anyone who has moved to another riding since last election must bring ID to the head office in town and register.

    I explain that their office is a long long way from here and that most of the Poors in my neighbourhood have sold their cars and will have to walk there.
    She seems 'confused' and keeps repeating 'Well thats the new law" (as if I dont understand that Father has made this a law of physics)

    I ask her why I cant register at the polling station like YOU ALWAYS COULD BEFORE?

    She gets annoyed that I dont understand

    I ask her who made that rule?

    My reason for asking is that for people without cars (poors) this makes them have a much more difficult and time consuming task. Many will need to take the afternoon off to walk the 14 Kms in extremely hot weather.

    This might influence a lot of the Poors to stay away.

    Now she is really 'frustrated but clued in' but won't tell me which lawmakers made this rule.

    Ive now left a message about this on my Conservative MP's answering machine and Im sure he doesnt give a fuck since the only people this affects will be the Poors (who should check out the Salvation Army for any and all problems they have and stay the fuck out of our neighbourhoods)

    I plan on challenging my Conservative MP - He can drop corporate taxes AND corporate welfare but I want to see JUSTICE and demand wages and benefits for every worker in this country!

    If they get in and those fuckers give the Haves more power over the Poors then I will be beyond pissed.

    Meanwhile the rest of Canadians just shrug shoulders and go "meh.. what can ya do"
    Woosies.
     
  13. Re-ElectGore

    Re-ElectGore Member

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    I'm an LPCer, thorugh thick and thin. The CPC scares me a bit...and the NDP is nice, but I don't trust them to try to manage any kind of budget.

    Go with the liberals.
     
  14. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

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    I dont hear those terminologies much but ya - The NDP are not really an option since they essentially rely on Conservative Parties to make huge money for the country - then spend one term giving it away to big Unions, special interests and 'programs' for companies that 'help' poor people.

    Liberals will never get my vote.. they eat poor people for breakfast, waste money on themselves, say the opposite is true and then act arrogant about it.

    Conservative Majority with NDP opposition would suit me just fine.
     
  15. jiimaan

    jiimaan Banned

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    So who won the leadership debate(s)? I think Layton comported himself the best, and Martin really came across bad. He really lost his cool when he made that "handlers" remark about Layton's advisors, a comment that interestingly didn't get any play in the paper this morning. I wonder why that could be?
     
  16. Just4laughs

    Just4laughs Member

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    I found Layton came off really nervous and not very confident. During the closing argument Martin was shaken by the demand of accountability by the Bloc. It seems as though Harper will win this in the end.
     
  17. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

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    I say Duceppe kicked ass in the first one.
    Harper came out best in the second.. mmm.. actually Layton did good considering he really had 'Zero' to start with.
    The most relative gains.

    Just my take on it anyway.
     
  18. serra

    serra tentacle girl

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    it makes me sad how little about canadian politics i really know.

    i dont like the idea of the death penalty amd personally when i need a hip replacement when i am 60 i don't really feel like having to mortgage my house. i have heard those are two things that the conservatives are about.

    i liked jean. keep in mind i know very little about canadian politics. but the guy just seemed ok. didn't do anything that REALLY pissed me off.
    i think i will be voting green or NDP. anything else just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. maybe communist. (manitoba has a communist party wooee)

    i know they would never win but it's an interesting concept and would certainly fuck things up a bit.... :p
     
  19. FNA

    FNA Member

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    Die Conservatives Die! Die Die Die Die Die!
     
  20. FNA

    FNA Member

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    No seriously dont vote for the conservatives - don't. DON'T! If you must choose between Liberal and Conservative (or throw your vote away on an actually decent part....NDP....Green Party) chose liberal. LIBERAL! NDP! GREEN PARTY! Just DON'T VOTE CONSERVATIVE. LISTEN TO ME. And for gods sakes don't vote Bloc Quebecois........
     

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