Don't The Americans Seem To You Sometimes Like

i say we do rid of the government and get a friggen king. Kings can be overthrown, but hell the government power is everywhere and theres no stopping it...i havnt completely thought this through, but i think i like it!

 

if people cant deal with the concept of anarchy ....what about panarchy where everybodys a king ....

 

THAT is a WONDERFUL viewpoint!

 

its like the concept of namaste as a greeting ....[i salute the god within u ] ...it can be pleeding others to behave well , and reminding them of divinity within themselves , or assuring them that u are respectfull twards them ....without seeing the universal spark within everyone and everything everywhere ....any sucess is pointless .

 

I don't think that's an arrogant view at all. That's one area in which the United States have generally succeeded much better than most other countries, and it's what I consider being the upside of the melting pot. The biggest problem with most immigration policies is that it stigmatises people. In Sweden, we don't just have immigrants, we also have "second generation immigrants". Now how weird is that, to be labelled as an immigrant in the country where you were born? Bizarre is what it is.

About the rednecks, it's kind of ironic how it's always either "they're stealing our jobs" or "they just sit at home and live off welfare". Kinda contradictory, isn't it?

peace,
-Pat

 

We have 5 weeks as standard vacation. Most people take it during the summer, but you're free to take it virtually whenever you want.

Believe me, it isn't just jews and muslims who don't like the idea of forced christmas holidays. I know the US is a very christian country, but over here, the 'non-religious' are in majority. Most people I know only 'celebrate' christmas because that's what they think is expected of them, and since it's a national holiday it's kinda hard to avoid. I usually do work during the holidays, since they always call in students when they're short on staff (I work in a wholesale warehouse and the stores always need to have food in stock, holiday or not). I obviously see your point though, most businesses probably do close completely, and it's a strong cultural tradition for many peope. All I'm asking for is a bit of choice though.

peace,
-Pat

 

And I say the same as Pat just said...

Despite I think Kagan is a big jerk, I also understand some aspects of his views. After 1000's of wars and after 'the great war' indeed, and after WWII especially, we've simply had enough in Europe. We became "Venus" after being "Mars" all through history.
Since market is based on competition, we decided to base the future society on civilization instead, because we've had so much competition through history that we just couldn't take anymore of it - well, actually we were about to die of all this competition.
We thought that we could base our societies on politics instead on economy. But we're not much better than the americans, when all comes to all... And that's why I'm afraid of idealism, if you see what I mean... United States has never had such considerations to take, so they gladly keep on with their rubbish about 'free markets salvation'. But did the free market save the poor with the 'wrong' skincolour in New Orleans?

love and understanding,
=noose=

 

i think as new orleans shows all too well, civilization is a thin veneer that hides the ugly truth of human(animal) nature: we will do whatever it takes to survive.

I read an intersting book by a french guy on anti americanism where he talks about the differences between the US and europe. What you were talking about how you 'chose' to put your future in civilization instead of competition reminded me of his book. He ultimately describes europe as a post modern wonder that hopefully the whole world could strive towards. Unfortunately, he says that the "European" wonder only exists because America "mans the gates" to protect Europe from the world. It fits quite well with the cold war; but now it loses some of its luster. Ultimately, American military presence in Europe has been so overwhelming that "Europe"(i.e. western europe) has not been able(not needed) to compete against each other, so you've been able to move pass the baser instincts of human nature. It will be interesting to see how Europe pans out as American influence decreases.

p.s. poor whites have died in N.O. too. Katrina didnt highlight racism in America, it highlighted that we have poor and that our government failed us completely.

 

the only way we could ever find out if that's true is too late

 

kruschev shoolda nuked this dump .....theres no no no fun in this putrid vat of puritanical tartoofs

 

I wish that USA was nationalist.

 

America is all fucked up, why are you guys still debating this

 

RE: I can't say I hate Americans or anybody, but I'm a bit annoyed by the way some Americans think democracy, freedom and all the values related to them are exclusively American trademarks.

Well, fella, it seems to me to be one of the few places in which it's still valid.

I know the recent kafuffles behind the electoral college results, the Real ID and PATRIOT have shown that the public can be snowed - check out what happens in states like Washington, where the public didn't want to pay exorbitant use taxes on cars and simply voted out the tax. Where free speech and the right to bear arms is still somewhat respected.

What you object to is ignorant jingoism - a blind waving of the flag and "we're #1!" chanted by folks who've no clue why. This exists EVERYWHERE. You want to see the worst bunch for it, check out the Canadians, who WILL at the drop of the hat tell you EXACTLY why they're all so much better than your countrymen if they find out you're a foreigner. Nicely though, but still. Or check out when they go on vacation somewhere. Let's see - Canadian flag on the backpack, canadian flag pin, red and white T-shirt, nine foot flag to hang from the balcony of the hotel, check.... ask em why Canada is so great and they chime in with the UN says it's the best place to live (the last time they said that was the 1980s). EVERY country has jingoists. Christ, try going down the council estates and badmouth Blighty.

RE: why can't I come to USA for more than a tourist?! I'll just get a green card and that's it.. I know a lot of czech people living in USA...

It took me SEVEN YEARS to get mine. AND I had a university degree, a college diploma and years of experience in my field. You can't "just" get a green card.

----

Let me tell you something about America. (I was born in Canada to European expatriates, so I grew up both in Canada and England and have made this country my home.)

Like it or hate it, you sure as hell buy their blue jeans, their Eminem records and their movies. You sure as hell want to visit or be transferred here if the opportunity arrives. I arrived in this country not even with the proverbial twenty five dollars in my pocket. I arrived a THOUSAND DOLLARS IN DEBT to my first employer, who fronted me the money to move there.

Now I have a nice house, a car, a motorcycle, two kids on one income. I'm not rich, I'm not banking away tons of money nor am I farting through silk, but let me tell you though I've had to work for it and work damn hard - the Amercian Dream can happen. You can actually MAKE SOMETHING OF YOURSELF. Unlike France, where I'd have to come from a certain family or England, where where you go to school and who you know play huge roles. Or China, where you have to be a Party Member or of a wealthy ex-Mandarin family.

Though France might have had its revolution first and to its credit, her citizens work VERY hard at their democracy - when was the last time they exported fratenite egalite and liberte? 1776?

The US has been guilty of hideous things - both at home and abroad. However, show me a country with clean hands. You can't. But you better believe that when there's a good cause (World War II? The Tsunami in Indonesia?) they're front and center and though the individuals making up this nation are treading water economically they goddamn well dig deep to help. And though oil and Halliburton are involved, Iraq has a Constitution for the first time.

Yeah, I don't like Rush Limbaugh. Or equivalent left wing idiots. But by GOD it's better to stand for something, even if I don't agree with it.

Be proud of your country. Every one has its strengths. Every one has its weaknesses. The world went nuts for Harry Potter. Canada is considered a fair arbiter. People marvel at the weightlifters Bulgaria has produced. Be proud of what your country has achieved, sing it proud. Just cause I'm waving the stars and stripes doesn't mean that I think I'm better than you. It means simply that of all the places I could live, I love that place the most - just as Americans have moved to France and flown the tricolore (Johnny Depp?) or to Canada and made sarcastic videos about "I switched" parodying the Mac ads.

 

You don't tell the name of that french author, but his points sound excactly like Robert Kagans... 'Europe could be a civilization because America protected Europe'... Doesn't impress me that your author is french - some french authors are sympathizing with neocons just as much as Robert Kagan do...

But Kagan and the neocons are not right. Since WWII Europe has been trying to develop international organs to prevent new world wars. U.N. is not perfect, but it's the most important institution that we've got right now. U.N. might be corrupt and so on and so on, and Annans son might be a crook and so on, etc. etc., but if we didn't have U.N. many nations would probably try to start new world wars since 1945.
Maybe that's why PNAC and the other neocons are so angry at the UN?

...And why do Kagan preach a realistic, Hobbesian worldview, in which any nation do what the must do to survive, while he's defending "exceptionalism of United States" as an idealistic ability of one nation, completely being cut off from his Hobbesian theoretically base???


love,
=wolf=

 

As for the UN - I don't think we should pay income taxes to it nor do I think it should have an independant army.

 

I definately agree. It should just be a parliament. It should never be a government.
Any political progress must come from the bottom, and if UN can't handle bottom-up-democracy, UN must be replaced by another global super-organ.
I would wish for another alternative to UN, but right at the moment we must consider for which things UN is good at. UN is not good at political decision, since politics belong to the people. UN should be a judicial supernational organ. In 2003 USA said "Fuck UN" and sent troops to Iraq, and later UN said "ok - since we can't do anything about USA, let's join them instead of being against them".
USA was defeating UN back then, but we just can't allow one nation to hollow out our desire to build a global organ that way, just because that particular nation produce good B-movies and feeds us with burgers that taste like cardboard. If UN doesn't work, all progressive forces all over the world must organize an alternative.
There must be organs built directly from the people, independent of UN. The future of UN is judicial, not political, so UN must strengthen its judicial organs, while the people must built up political organs from the bottom (to demolish national ideological structures of power).
And such a political organ must take control with UN as a judicial institution. That's the best way to turn UN democratic.


love and understanding,
=wolf=

 

Heres one for you. If america was 'Discovered', what were the red indians doing? Running through?

 

The author was John Francois Revel.

Lets remember that the UN(and the predecessor) were US driven initiatives. You'd be hard pressed to find any(let alone successful) world wide initiatives that werent supported by the US. ICC and Kyoto would be the two big ones. Since WWII, yes, europe has played a large role in pushing "democratic" solutions. Why? Because the US and the USSR completely dwarfed them militarily, it was the only way they could compete. Thats what Revel and i guess kagan are saying. The US protected Europe from the USSR so Europe could push 'democratic' initiatives. If the Might of the US wasnt protecting Europe, would the USSR have obeyed belgium going "ya know, we should make love not war."


As for Kagan, i'm not sure. I've not read him. But of course, the US would be cut off from the 'theoretical Hobbesian base' because we're exceptional


btw, well said irongoth.

 

RE: I would wish for another alternative to UN, but right at the moment we must consider for which things UN is good at.

The UN can barely make a saleable Christmas card.

They screwed up Darfur. Kofi Annan and his son are crooks of the first order, and the UN has put folks like the Sudan and China on its Human Rights board.

 

it's cuz we rule