Don´t remain tied, Darwin has lied

I have recently found God/Allah, it is the same God so lets not argue over that.... But my point is othere that "God's word" in the Qu'ran where is you evedence for pure Creationism...Life is a fantasitc thing, somehitng i can hardly comprehend, couldn't just ahve taken place over millions and millions of times of trial and error..

 

I think it's all in the TIMING. Both ideas could be CORRECT. Just that creation happened WAY earlier than MANKIND. God created everything, THEN allowed it to evolve, and when a species intelligent enough emerges, he/she makes his/her presence known. Like it describes in Genesis.

 

Burbot

Occam also sees no evidence for creationism
Except in human books...

And asks [again] If god created the earth with a snap of the fingers.
[in 4004bc or whatever]
Why did it create earth to look like it WAS NOT created?

Look at what we have found using our Minds.
The first and simplest.
Verification for A 3 billion year history.

Geological weathering...

Occam

 

Don't babble on about the old "it cannot just be chance! Earth is the only place. . . " BS. It IS chance that this planet is perfectly hospitable. But that is just the start. Chemicals and elements on the planet determine life too. "The chance that cells would do all this stuff--bla bla bla. .", they are living things, they react and change. They fit whatever situation that needs to be dealt with.

 

Also.. Darwin only went back to religion in fear that people would look down upon him after his death. Who knows if he actually believed any of it. I'm assuming he saw the light (of logic).

 

SARS is said to have come from the huge amount of increasing wild animals in Asia I believe which transferred their disease to human beings and it started to grow. SARS is not a "new" virus but it´s a different kind of one that already was known, ofcourse when we humans dump radiation, filth and all kinds of strange things in nature we would probably get some kind of disease or problem sooner or later. Allah(may he be exalted) gives people diseases and it is also he who cures people, if he wants to create a new disease right now he can do so. A simple answer to your questions
Where did SARS come from..?
Where did resistant TB come from?
(Interpretation of the meaning):

And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses, no choice have they. Glorified is Allah, and exalted above all that they associate.[Qasas 28.68]

Do you acually consider a fly without wings as evidence for evulotion? I could just capture a fly and then remove its wings with my fingers and it would still not show any proof for evolution, a mutation does not give good!

A mutation changes order but not the whole thing, for example it can happen that somebody is given another finger caused by a mutation but not a paw or a metal finger or something of that kind, none of you nor any of the most prominent evolutionists such as Richard Dawkins can answer my questions about the advanced structure and systems of the cell and how this could have evolved gradually, why is there so much silence around biochemistry and evolution, why do evolutionist fear this so much, is it because they can not explain it?



And Allah knows best

 

Cabdirazzaq

How do you know SARS is not a new virus?
If it was in animals all along...Why did it wait 6000 years to manifest?
[according to creationist timescales]

You say allah gives people deseases......... and cures them
WHY?

Not a fly without wings...
A species of fly without wings..
One that reproduces fly's without wings...
A new species.

And you did not answer the question about resistant TB.
It is an example of evolution few are brave enough to argue with
As you were not..

You speak of mutations.. occam does not..His examples are SPECIES.

You suggest there is some conspiracy of silence in evolutionary biology.
Occam sees no such thing..
Even if all humans stood up and shouted...evolution is false...
Occam would still believe the evidence..first...
And the words of humans ....LAST
There is much evidence...

Directly percievable to occam...[empirical]

And that evidence says this planet is OLD.
Billions of years.

Occam sees NO EVIDENCE of creationism....
Our world has ALL the phenomena of a world that has aged over thousands of millions of years.
Yet you say it was created....
IF it was created..it was created to look like it was not created...

Does god play games with us?
There is no reason to create a world to look like [to reason] one that was not created
Unless god decieves us in a POOR fashion...He thinks us so stupid as to believe a book..Over believing what we see in reality.

The god you believe in, ALLAH and the god of christianity...THE SAME GOD.
Speak only through books.
IT seems....

'Lord of the rings' is a book...
Does it speak truth?
As much as your book does...Yes.
Both have the SAME empirical grounding.

Thus..is not your religion a fantasy?

Occam

 

Touche my friend...touche...

 

god speaking through books...
the "revealed" religions...
the prophet muhammed described the jews and the christians as being "people of the book" and wished for his people (children of the patriarch abraham (abram, ibrahim) by hagar through ishmael (as opposed to the hebrews, who were children of abraham through sarah (sarai) through israel))... and though an illiterate, his recitation (al quran means "the recitation") of his experiences with god's messenger angel gave his people a book about the doings of the one god...

monotheistic religions, especially the abrahamic family, often will insist more fervently than other human spritual traditions that their sacred scriptures are (in addition for being general guides on how to be human) factual & historical in every detail...
& "if we're right, then you're wrong; & if you ain't with us, then you're against us: & if you're against us, then you're against god: & if you're against god, then - well, you deserve what ever's comin' to you, you filthy non-believer you!"

& the next thing you know --- wars of conquest & extermination:
the jews taking over "the promised land" (canaan, with joshua at the front & the walls came tumblin' down;
christians consolidating the remnants of the decaying roman empire & eliminating heretics & coming up with great ideas like schisms, holy inquisitions, crusades, pogroms, fratricidal religious wars, & missionaries;
muslims with forced conversions in many newly conquered lands (and they conquer & spread their message from iberia & morocco across africa & eastern europe & the middle east & much of asia clear out to indonesia) & jihads & janissaries...

~
~
~
anyways, "fundamentalists" in all 3 traditions can find reason in their scriptures to believe that the world was recently made, pretty much "as is"...
but many more within each tradition will admit that the world is very old, and that things have changed a great deal over thousands of millions of years... but they still see the hand of god guiding the development of life towards bring forth one "made in the likeness of god" - that is, mankind...

and here we are...

 

Cabdirazzaq- I find it interesting that you suggest I have no proof. Yet you offer no proof.


I undertsand well the system you outlined as I have spent much time studying biology and human anatomy. The first things you are taught in these classes is the process of evolution. It is impossible to study life without understanding this. Yes, the system is complex, this does not necessitate a design.

So you conveniently lump all of our orgins into apes and men. This is arbitrary, you say there is nothing in the 'middle'. They are ALL in the middle. Just as you are in the middle - between your parents and your children.

There simply isn't enough room on Hip-Forums server to hold all of the evidence science has found for evolution. Every avenue of biological study, genetics, epidemiology, anthropology, palaentology, archaeology has come to the same conclusion and there are libraries and libraries full of evidence supporting this process. I guess your one book recants all of this evidence.

Yes, Darwin had an insufficient understanding of the cell. Your creation authors had NO understanding of the cell. They didn't even know it existed. Yet you suggest THEY are right, and he was worng? He didn't come up with evolution studying a cell he first came up with it watching the variety of doves which lived in different places in europe. His theories became more concrete when he visited galapagos islands. His theory needs no cellular understanding it is about the changes organisms go through over thousands of years of reproduction and little more.

 

SARS as described by researchers as a virus from the family of coronaviruses, if this is incorrect then I refer to the Swedish Institute for Infectious Disease Control (SMI). Allah(may he be exalted) gives people diseases and cures them, if he wants to test some one he can make him/her illl and if he wants to punish someone for a unlawfull act which this person did he could strike him with a disease such as AIDS which didn´t exist before people started indulging in fornication and such disgusting immoral acts. The prophet(peace be and blessing of Allah be upon him) said in a hadeeth:
Whenever sexual permissiveness spreads among the people until it becomes declared, infections and killing diseases, as well as illnesses not previously found in their ancestors will spread among them" (Sunan Ibn Majah)

As stated above, new foundings of diseases does not contradict against my religion so I believe I do not need to answer your question about TB.
Who cares if you have species of flies without wings, it hasn´t improved anything has it? We already know the bad affects that mutations can cause but where are all the good stuff? Stop assuming that I believe that the world is 6000 years old, I can not find anything in my religion to support this! If you want the truth, I do not know how old the earth is and it is nothing important for me to think about anyway. The evidence for creationism is founded everywhere in nature and in our selves. Science means that you should have some kinds of evidence to support your theory while the theory of evolution is lacking a great deal of the evidence which it needs. How can this theory explain how our complex immune system could have evolved or the blood clotting system? A immune system which is lacking of any of its dussin parts is harmfull against us hence it couldn´t have evolved in small steps the same with the blood clotting system. Some parts must build the fibrin and start the clotting while others activate others and some slice other parts and other parts give energy and some parts stop the cutting so it doesnt harm us and so on, this must be done fast and in perfect order so as to save us from loosing all of our blood, does not this show you design? There has been a Creator which has degined all this, every thing just screams design just like when we look at a airplane or a car for instance. How can this theory explain how all these million of animals with all their millions of functions have evolved from once cell? If we were to say they did, then tell me where they got their instict from? How does a fish find it´s way from one part of the world to another, by smelling it´s way? - It's a little far fetched for a fish to smell it´s way from the Mexican gulf to the coast here in Gothenburg or how some animals plan a head like the beaver, could evolution have given these animals, compassion, love and anger? How and why did we evolop huge brains? How can DNA evolve when it need protein and how can protein evolve when it needs DNA? How can you expect Rna to come first when it is said to function as a blue print, how can advanced life appear on earth by chance when it is something that can´t be accomplised in the best laboratories man has builded? How can the tribolite which researcher claim existed among the first living animals have such an extremly advanced eye struture?

Harun Yahya

And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."

And Allah knows best

 

Cabdirazzaq

If you will not answer occams questions on resistant TB
You answer NO questions...

All your statements mean nothing if you cannot resolve this one.
It is AN example of functional evolution.

ONE THAT EXISTS..As a realworld phenomena...
As apposed to your book
Which exists as a book. And no more.

Answer the question..Occam cannot be converted to you cult.
[For your religion is a CULT of the world monothiesm.]
Ever..Unless your Allah gets in his face...

Occam only cares if you are able to offer an explanation for resistant TB.
And how it came to be...
Evolution and enviromental adaption explains it...
YOU ,,and your prepacked religion..do not.
Religion has no method...it is belief in a BOOK.
And your book does not mention the appearance of new species.
Thus it expalins nothing on this issue

How does allah know best?..Because you say he does.
The human Einstein ..Albert..Is in the real world of our understanding
A being of far greater importance than your god...
He gave us understanding.

Your god gives us conflict and war..As does the christian god...
[but not jesus,, the variant.While mohammed was a warrior]
As does just about every stupid human idea of god...

You talk as if your god is right here..
But occam sees it not...
Show it to occam and he will believe...

You cannot?
WHAT A SURPRISE.

Show occam your god...And he will believe EVERY WORD YOU SAY

All you have to do...is present the phenomena...
An easy thing..if it exists..
If it does not...

Then your belief,,is just that,,belief....opinion.

Occam

 

Very well said.

 

TB is very much connected to AIDS and becomes alot worse when they are combined and as I said before Aids and such diseases steps in when people commit these unlawfull actions as was described in the hadith of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him). I have answered this question, Allah(may he be exalted) gives diseases if this happens by way of evolution I can not say no to that nor can I affirm it, but even though you might be able to try to convince me that TB could have evolved you would never succeed in convincing me that you and I, the whole world was from a result of chance! Now could this TB disease evolve to a immune system, photo syntesis and a digesting system if we would give it a while?

All your statements mean nothing if you cannot resolve this one.
It is AN example of functional evolution.

You blame me for not explaining one thing even though I think I have explained it while you your self ignore most of what I´ve said? Science have a rule which is quite known, it's called publish or perish, either you publish evidence or you perish and sense no evolutionist has ever tried to explain with details how all the biochemical systems could have arosen then this theory is bound to perish!!!

Occam only cares if you are able to offer an explanation for resistant TB.
And how it came to be...
Evolution and enviromental adaption explains it...
YOU ,,and your prepacked religion..do not.

The prophet(peace be and blessing of Allah be upon him) said in a hadeeth:
Whenever sexual permissiveness spreads among the people until it becomes declared, infections and killing diseases, as well as illnesses not previously found in their ancestors will spread among them" (Sunan Ibn Majah)

HIV is close attached to TB and if HIV would decrease then TB would probably also stop increasing.

Your god gives us conflict and war..As does the christian god...
[but not jesus,, the variant.While mohammed was a warrior]
As does just about every stupid human idea of god...

Darwinism gave a (indirect) start for Materalism, Facism and Communism wherupon alot wars have been faught against people from different race just because Darwin though people like my self where as low as baboons and monkeys to the point in which they have evolved while the lord has said(interpretation of the meaning):

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). [Hujurat 49.13]

You talk as if your god is right here..
But occam sees it not...
Show it to occam and he will believe...

Show me your reason, you sense! Show me it, what you can't? Well then theres no point in argumenting with you sense you can't prove to me that you have a common sense...
Do you love your mother? Then show me this, or let me hear it, or let me feel it or let me taste it! What you can't? Well then you don't love your mother you awfull thing, hates his own mother...
Will you die some day occam, yes ofcourse you will. How do you know this, by researcher or have you noticed people dying so you counted out that you also will die some day, have you tasted/felt/heard/smelled or seen 'death', no yet you are sure you are going to die, interesting indeed.

I wont be around for a 10 days starting from tomorrow inshallah(if Allah wants to) because we have reached the last ten days of Ramadan and the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah) use to stay inside the mosque for 10 days(20 the year he died) so I want to do this also. Finally these are some verses with which I'm urging you to leave these bogus non scientific bogus theory which you are following(darwinism)and these verses are so dear to me in words which are hard to describe(interpretation of the meaning)

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

Allah is the Wali (Protector or Guardian) of those who believe. He brings them out from darknesses into light. But as for those who disbelieve, their Awliya' (supporters and helpers) are Taghut (false deities and false leaders), they bring them out from light into darknesses. Those are the dwellers of the Fire, and they will abide therein forever. [Baqarah 2.256-257]

http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=flashes&cat=3

 

cab-
Well this is going nowhere fast. You simply can't refute a single statement on here with a single scientific fact. I could read to you from some ancient texts too, but it will prove no point.

Please take the ANNOYING posts to the Islamis threads....

Either way I will be ignoring you from now on.

 

acctually here is a definition of religion
re·li·gion
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion


...Religions have nothing to do with books, just teachings...I can accept that others have differing views of where we came from in the world, but i cannot accept ignorance and arrogance...both displayed by cab--- and occam....that is all i have to say about that...

 

Darwin hasn't "lied" to us, he just did not have sufficient technology to support his claims. His theory is interesting and he did bring forth a very sound argument toward the theory of evolution, but it is just that, a THEORY. Natural selection, aids in survival, it is not, as we are already aware, an optimizing process, it is purely naturalistic, unconscious and undetermined. It seemed logical back in the days of Darwin, considering one either believed in theology or science, this was the scientific explanation for the existence of the earth's species' and the workings of the world. It did, however, lack the empirical evidence needed to back up his efforts. For example the fossils specifically observed from over 600 million years ago. With modern advances in science, scientists have noted that there have been no records of previously existing lifeforms, which somehow led people to believe in a spontaneous phenomena. Also, another strong point in refutting the theory of evolution, is that of irreducable complexity. Michael Behe, a famous biochemist, who dwindled in philosophy, brought forth the objection of Darwin's theory with irreducable complexity. He analogizes it with a complex design such as the eye, and says that there is no possible way that such an intricate mechanism could have evolved from a lesser state. Meaning that, the eye has specific parts that allow it to function just perfectly, if some of those parts are altered or weakened the eye will not work accordingly. This suggests that there must have been more aspects concerning the 'design' of natural things, than simply evolution. And, Darwin has stated himself that: (Origin of Species)
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
The eye could not have been formed by what Darwin is claiming in his theory (that all things can be formed progressively, in different states of evolution, for better means of survival.) And Behe argues that Darwin has not compensated or explained how natural selection could work for complexities such as the eye, or other such complex structures. Darwin, ONLY explained evolution at a macro level...which is why his theory goes unsupported, to explain evolution microscopically (perhaps due to lack of contemporary scientific advances we now have access to). Which is why I would have to agree with Michael Behe and his hypothesis toward irreducable complexity, considering how he has used scientific evidence to rule out Darwin's theory. Which is why Darwin's specific theory absolutely fails...other such theories of evolution exist, although they seem weak and discerning. Some would argue that natural or theological explanations or phenomena are what has caused the existence of beings, but that is for a different thread..

 

This same quote was used by the murderer of notorious column-writer Theo van Gogh ( who, in my opinion, used only valid objections against the Islamic religion, though I don't agree with the common all-immigrants-have-to-leave-the-country atmosphere that usually surrounds criticism aimed at the Islam and by the way christians are / used to be just as bad ) but we'll keep that out of this thread ) here in Holland a few days ago to justify the homicide he had comitted. I marvel at how people can be so close-minded and downright stupid to believe in any religion other people made up for them.

Though Darwin's theory isn't a proven fact, it is indeed very likely to be true. The earliest humanoids appear to have "developed" in the Olduvai-gorge in western Africa around three million years ago, from where they slowly spread around the world, adapting to their surroundings both culturally and genetically. The genetic part of this adaptation is evolution. There is plenty of archaeologic evidence for this to convince me of the truth of Darwin's statements. I do not expect you to be, so I'll give a modern anthropologic example:

When you compare native Africans with Inuit ( "Eskimos" ) in the most northern regions of the earth, you will see that whereas the Africans are mostly long and thin ( obviously not referring to pygmies ) and the Inuit are short and roundish. This is a genetic adaptation the the climate of their respective "habitats": tall, thin people have much more body area compared to volume, this is for being able to quickly lose thier surplus of body heat in the hot climate of Africa. Inuits have much more volume and less area so they can keep themselves from losing too much body heat to the Arctic cold. Such a big difference, and yet both have originated from the same "forefather".

This is clearly a sign that people under different circumstances will genetically adapt ( = evolve ) in different ways.

I guess we'll have to see what things look like in another three million years...

 

I would like to add

Ponder Stibbons (Of the Unseen University of Anhk Morpork) came up with 2 rules for the emergance of life on earth (roundworld project).

1. It turns up wherever it can.
2. It turns up wherever it can't.

Jack Cohen explains:

"The idea that life could be self starting is still contraversial to many people. Nevertheless, it turns out that finding plausible roues to life is easy. There must be at least thirty of them. It's hard to decide which, if any, was the actual route taken, because later life forms destroyed all evidence. This may not matter much: if life hadn't taken the route it did, it could have easily taken one of the others, or one of the hundered we haven't thought of yet."

The next thing Cohen explains is about 3 or 4 possible routes it could have taken.

Termites build their nests by something called collective intelligence. This means they have a simple rule but because there are so many of the fuckers this rule manifests to be something pretty amazing.

The rule for building termites nests is this:

If you smell that another Termite has been here, stick a pellet here.

Your genes have to move damn fast for the body to stay the same. This is because the environment just moves so quickly.

It isn't being left alone. It has heat from the sun.

Blessings

Sebbi

 

ever notice how people who beleive in creationism look really unevolved?

hahaha i cant remember who said it but its awesome