Don´t remain tied, Darwin has lied

I don't want to read all of this bullshit, but explain to me WHY anyone would think humans AREN"T realted to apes, its so obvious that you would have to be a complete moron not to see it.

 

I think you answered your own question.

 

ahhh touche

have you ever looked at a chimps hands and fingernails?

they are SO close to humans, even the rising moon pattern under the fingernail is nearly identical. they are smart animals, I feel honored to be their cousin.

I think the fact that we look alike and share 99% of the same DNA makes for a more rational arguement than adam pulling out a rib and drawing a woman.

 

I'm sorry that I'll no longer answer by quoting cuz I'm too lazy to write. If I wrote as much as I did on these forums, at school, I would have graduated earlier.

But the principle mistake between a dogmatic thesis and a "scientific" thesis is that scientific thesis asks questions and analyzes things and tries to answer. When it can not answer certain questions, it is always easy to blame it (abuse it).

Whereas the dogmatic thesis has all the answers. It is not possible for a religious person not be able to explain things. Our religion teacher, when asked why certain things worked liked the way they are but not like some other way, used to say "Because God wants them to be this way".

This used to be the best answer you'd get. Therefore it's futile to discuss. Discussion belongs to the questioning part, the part that does not have the answers.

And about the part that always has the answers (dogmatic)... I fear to be on that side, because I fear to be certain about being right all the time.

 

(Thanks to Razorofoccam for the inspiration)

I have no respect for a dogmatist, as I believe firmly in the use of Ockham's Razor.

Back in medieval times, a man by the name of William of Ockham created a tool of the mind called "Ockham's Razor." This tool states "Do not multiply entities unnecessarily," in more or less words.

Here is an example of its use:

A) The Earth revolves around the sun due to a powerful force which makes it do so.
B) The Earth revolves around the sun due to a powerful force created by aliens which makes it do so.

If you'll notice, both statements are valid theories. And neither can be proven wrong. However ... the second statement says that aliens created this force.

Using Ockham's Razor, we can make our statements more truthful and less open to disproof by not adding entities to our theories; entities that we have no way to prove exist, such as aliens. By removing the aliens part, our statement explains why the Earth revolves around the sun, but does not dictate all of the details (which might be unknown to us) about that action.

I could tell you that the Earth gets its ice cream from invisible ice cream factories on Mars, but since I have no evidence to suggest that, nor any proof, it is more rational to say "The Earth gets its ice cream from somewhere I don't know."

Likewise, to say that God or Allah or what-have-you created the universe without any true evidence (other than what people have told you ... which is no evidence because they could be wrong, lying, or misinformed) is equally irrational without evidence.

Then, you may ask, why am I a theist? Does that not make me irrational?

It's quite simple.

If I said Allah created the world and does as he wishes, and when somebody asked me why I believe in Allah, and I said "Because Allah wishes me to," or some such thing, I would be using the existance of Allah to justify the existance of Allah; this is circular in belief and completely irrational.

However, if I said, "Because I have felt what I believe to be Allah," or "Because I want something to believe in," or "Because I believe that the Koran was written by Allah," (no offense; I do not know if the Koran supposedly was or wasn't written by Allah, please don't hold me to that), then I would be using some kind of evidence that I have to justify Allah's existance.

And would YOU say that YOU have felt Allah, I would equally respect that and could find no way to prove it wrong, because it is YOUR experience that you believe in, and that can't be proven wrong, at least not to you.

Similarly, I believe in Gaia. I do believe that I have felt Gaia, that she has touched me, and that she gives direction and existance to reality, and to us. But I believe this only because I have experienced her presence, and nobody could disprove that I had this experience (unless it were scientifically proven, but we as the human race do not have the technology to do that yet).

Since evolutionism has no deity, there is nothing to be "felt" from a deity, and this type of evidence cannot exist for all evolutionists. Because of that, all evolutionists MUST have some type of evidence supporting their theories, other than just "Because I think it happened that way." And sometimes, evolutionists make mistakes or don't know answers, but should they be held against that? All people make mistakes, and nobody knows everything; to err is human.

You coming in here and trying to prove evolutionism wrong is perfectly acceptable. However, evolutionism DOES offer evidence.

By the philosophical definition of a rational person, all rational people, to continue to be rational, MUST consider ALL evidence they have for or against a belief. Therefore, for a rational person not to be an evolutionist (as evolutionism offers, at the very least, some evidence), that person would have to have personal evidence that is stronger (at least to them) than evolutionism evidence.

And I, for one, (and hopefully you as well), DO have this evidence, in that I have experienced Gaia firsthand. =) Otherwise, you would just be another ignorant dogmatist, and nobody should be cursed to be that.

Regardless, any "evidence" that is against evolutionism is not evidence, it's just somebody trying to justify their beliefs in some kind of deity, because they feel that evolutionists are a threat, by trying to disprove evidence that is shaky at best, and is only a calculated guess to begin with.

 

Why shouldn´t I call his theory a lie. He founded all his evidence on a guess here and one here, what is the difference between a man guessing without knowledge and one who is lying? The man thinks australian aborgines and african negroes are no more smarter than apes and baboons, you can clearly notice his intelligence can´t you. Believing in a creator does not envolve any kind of assuming, there is no doubt about it, you people are truly like the blind. You have the truth in front of you and eagerly turn away from it. Now I´m guessing that you will remind me that I never seen, heard, felt or smelled my Lord(may he be exalted) yet I believe in him, why? Do you not see the signs of his creation all over the world in all millions and millions of species?
Let me ask you a question, are you going to die some day? [*thinking what kind of a stupid question is that] Yes ofcourse you acknowledge that fact, how do you know that you are going to die, have you seen, tasted, smelled, heared or felt death? No, but you see other people dying and you know using your own sense of logic(not being told this and that by scientists) that everone dies. By Allah, how can you then not accept that all these wonderfull creatures from small to large with such advanced functions variating from a bat which can in a completly dark room notice a worm smaller than my little finger under a big rock which is under a pile of cloths were created and signs for us to see? A wale which can communciate from miles away and birds which can navigate their way back where ever you put them? Science means considering options, then why are you refusing to even consider the fact of a Creator(may he be exalted) even though that is alot stronger to go on rather than this and that happend by it self and than this happend by it self.

You clearly say no to the idea that I could have wings but how did the first birds appear according to the evolution theory? Appearently some creatures which were land animals started chasing flies and then adapted wings like this stupid picture(from Harun Yahya)


Now why cant I do that?

What exacly do you not understand from the quote I pasted, that protein can´t exist without DNA and vice versa? Protein are said to build up DNA, yes but it is DNA that tells it what kind of protein to build as scientists claim. So how can a protein build up DNA without the instructions which DNA provide?

I´ve heard from evolutionists that giraffs came from horses or some other animal which wanted to reach leafs up in the tree and fishes "evolved" to land animals because they needed food, well I could need some wings so as to fly to school, it would save me alot of time.

Are you comparing a pile of sand to an advance building consisting of hundrends of rooms, air conditioning, and all these modern things which are used nowadays? Who said these huge rock mountains were created by sand which got ontop each other, mountains are like pegs holding the earth stable from earthquakes as stated by those who work with geology and which was stated by the lord of the worlds (Interpreation of the meaning):

Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse
And the mountains as pegs?[Quran 78:6-7]

30. Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe

31. And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them, and We placed therein broad highways for them to pass through, that they may be guided. [Quran 21.30-31]

So if I would follow your theory, I could swim and dive ever now and then I would after a while have develop gills? Your argument is a defensive one without evidence, what you say is that this happend along time ago and it will happen after a long time has passed but right now nothing is happening. You are not living but in a delusion, far away from the truth. Indeed the true certainty(death) will show the truth and then it is to late. If you but understod that you were born yesterday and will die tomorrow and will be questioned about what you did..


39. As for those who disbelieved, their deeds are like a mirage in a Qi`ah. The thirsty one thinks it to be water until he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing; but he finds Allah with him, Who will pay him his due. And Allah is swift in taking account.

40. Or like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with waves topped by waves, topped by dark clouds, (layers of) darkness upon darkness: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light.

O my lord, make me adherent to the truth, make make my heart and my feet steady and save me from ever inclining to a people who do not know.

 

Time and space and photon's seem to be having a hard time of it these days.....Einstien said the magic word "relativity"....it's just all so relative to how each of us percieves it....
I still cannot be budged off my theory that consciousness existed within timlessness and nothingness and that conciousness was the catalyst of everything.....
I call that consciousness god, and it could be defined as a creator, except I think we are all\everything a part of that consciousness, therefore we must be creating ourselves, which corresponds to Darwin....

 

You can't lie in a theory. That what a theory is, an educated guess. It's not proven nor disproven but rather the first step in figureing out the facts.

For I shall smite thee. Now go'eth forth and spread word that you have been smitten. For smiteing is thy path to righteousness and an end to all thats been smite. [Charly 23:14]

 

evolution doesnt occur overnight you dumb fuck, noone has ever stated that. the documented reptile to bird mutation has been dated at millions and millions of years. god get over yourself

 

cabdirazzaq

This is all and well..
But occam asks one question....

How do you know how god creates?

From stories in your book?
From experience?

Occam has i simple theory that solves all this stuff..

Evolution..Is gods way of creating....

This resolves all the issues does it not?
God will hardly be limmited to our time frames...It can change things here and there and move through time to perfect a creation just as we would walk around the garden trimming plants...

Occam

 

oh no...
darwinism, eeeek...

OK, charles darwin was influenced by the british/euro/caucasian worldview which he perforce took in with his mother's milk, so to speak...
and his "theory of evolution by means of natural selection" has been misunderstood & misused by nazis & klansmen & "social darwinists" & other racist kooks...
and darwin (and his fellow scientists/natural philosophers) were unaware of the pioneeering work of monk gregor mendel, which would soon allow the discipline of genetics to flourish....
nevertheless, his "theory" is a handy tool, a useful model of the way scientists in many disciplines accept that nature works; and a stunning achievement in the body of human knowledge... (and in this context, the word "theory" doesn't mean some half-assed guess, but a rigorously presented model, being subject to attempts by fellow scientists to test it, & to attempts to refute (!) the theory...
many others were trying to formulate explanations for the driving mechanism of the undeniable changes in the types of plants and animals that have taken place during the geological history of this planet; some were virtually saying the same thing as darwin (wallace, for example), & some were on a different tack (lamark, say)... i mean, it was obvious to any impartial observer that the fossil record indicated things used to be quite different...
darwin was the first to articulate the means ("natural selection") by which evolution proceded...
that "life is change" has been observed by philiophers, scientists, & poets for thousands of years...
as we learned more about the age of the earth, and finer details in how to read the fossil record, the true age of the earth bacame apparent (indeed, one of darwin's concerns about his theory was the lack our time for sufficient changes to take place within the space of a few thousand (or even a few hundred thoushand) years...
but hundreds of millions of years may indeed be sufficient, mmkay? (and 4.55 billion years seems to be plenty of time...)
biologists still disagree over the details, but generally agree on the overall validity of darwin's arguements (slow-n-steady vs punctuated equilibrium; tooth-n-claw struggle vs co-evolution & co-operation; "selfishness" vs "altruism"; etc.)

~
conditions on primeval earth were quite different --- once water managed to stay liquid (freezing here, boiling there, but most of it in a liquid state), well all sorts of things (OK, "chemical reactions") inevitably occured...
but the early atmosphere had NO free oxygen, so ya don't hafta worry about oxygen breaking down those poor fragile pre-life molecules...
anyways, reactions that were successful hung around, and some of them manages to do little catalytic tricks...
and cycling around the freeze/thaw cycle, with a base of microcrystalline clays, is another possible way for nice templates to work with nearby organic chemicals to set up self-replicating reactions... (so - the "primordial soup" could have been a cold consomme rather than a hot stew, heh...)
another way to protect these delicate reactions is to seperate them from the surrounding ennvironment... & agitated lipids & aqueous solutions spontaneously form "micelles" (little bubbles of water inside a double layer of fat molecules) - the prototype for all cell membranes...
anyways, various little groups of "descendents" of the early "winner molecules" would spread their winning mechanisms around, and working cooperatively, molecules often fared better than ones that tried to do it all alone...
and organic (CHON) molecules were battering the planet inside of thousands of comets that impacted the early earth, from slushballs the size of your fist to ones bigger than manhattan island, dirty snowballs rich with water & organic chemicals...

and the ancestor of all life on this planet (and still with the most biomass & the greatest influence on the planetary ecology) was/is the members of kingdom Monera (bacteria and their allies; a life-form we call "prokaryotic"...)
virtually every important biochemical mechanism was first developed by those little bacteria...
and most of them have been "learned" by "the rest of the living world" - the eukaryotes, which includes the other 4 kingdoms: protists, plants, fungi, & animals...

it is now accepted by evolutionary biologists that dr lynn margulis' hypothesis that all eukaryotic ancestors first arose as an alliance of diverse bacteria sharing common "housing", with each member perfoming a particular set of duties is the real deal, & now is called "the endosymbiont theory" ...
and once the blue-green algae (actually photosynthetic cyanobacters) "invented" photosynthesis & started releasing oxygen into the atmosphere, everything changed - oxygen is useful as a source of driving metabolism, but it not only supports combustion (stuff burns) but is very poisonous to organisms that thrive in a reducing atmosphere (like almost everything living on the planet at that time - the "precambrian") --- so, almost everything died off... and this invention of photosynthesis was passed on to the eukaryotic organisms called plants (via organelles = used-to-be-BG-alga) called chloroplasts... (it would seem that all of the organelles in every cell were once free-living prokaryotic organisms: golgi bodies, mitochondria, centromeres, cilia & flagella, etc... some even still have residual independent DNA-codes within them!)
(see margulis & sagan _microcosmos_)

~
~
~
and you see...
here we are...
back in the present time...
oh my goodness...

 

Evolution doesnt happen over one night? Ok but If I would jump around for the rest of my life and let all my offspring indulge in this activity and we would do this in a span of million years, believe me, we would never form wings. There are millions of species living today,why, WHY doesn´t atleast one of them evolve to another being with new features?

 

Oh, but they ARE evolving to other beings. You just can't see it because you only have the gift of life for a mere 100 or so years. And evolution simply does not happen so quickly. But rest assured, it IS happening. Perhaps over 1000 years, you might see a very small difference, and perhaps over 10,000 years you'd see a more significant difference, but 100 years just is not enough time, especially since neither of us are evolutionist scholars, and we don't know what to look for. The two of us might not recognize evolution even if we saw it over a process of 100,000 years.

And jumping around would not produce the physical need for wings anyway. All you'd get are the legs of a kangaroo. If you wanted wings, you might try falling from the sky for millions of years (assuming that could ever be possible), flapping your arms, until they eventually spread out and began to form wing-like appendages, or something. But that aside, that is not evolution, that is just a mutation, and likely wouldn't be carried over in genes. In order for something to evolve, all of its genes must carry the genetic code for the wings into its offspring, and I doubt that the body would add a specific genetic code just because you flapped your arms. The theory of evolution suggests that evolution is just changing, adding, or removing a particular part of the DNA just one part at a time, over years upon years.

 

Cabdirazzaq

But they do..We can force evolve short span life in the laboratory.
Bacteria and Virrii ..even some insects.

Baxteria and Virii ...
EVOLVE arround us as we speak,,,
Where did SARS come from??

Example: The new resistant TB....Where did it come from???
Enviromental evolution..and we created the enviroment to cause
it to be.

Look around my friend.
Reality does not match your book.
You want it to..
But wanting a thing has no realtion to the reality of a thing.

Occam asks that you really LOOK at why you believe your book is the truth.
Occam once believed what society said was truth...
He believed governments were for the people.
That Organised religion exists to help others.

Then ..He stopped believing what PEOPLE said
And started believing what REALITY said

This probably happened about the time occam read the words
"The sum total of human thought is 99% opinion,,And 1% fact"

Occam

 

WORDS OF WISDOM!

 

Evolution is a slow process that comes from the "naural selection" that favors certin traits over others...For example long necks on girraffes, Darwin's therory states that in the beginning, girraffes had both long short and in between necks, the girraffes were competing with other organisms for leaves on shorter trees so to beat comprtition the when tto the higher trees...the ones wiht short necks died and could not reproduce, leaving the trait for loong necks....The way you are thinking is the Lamarak thinning where the girraffes s-t-r-e-t-c-h their necks to reach the leaves...this is wrong and proven wrong......The first proteins came from RNa strands that formed with poshphates, sugars and nitrogens, these then orgainized and collected ammino acids to made proteins And DNZ/RNA/tRNa arew supremly simple......All you need for a cell to start to form is a phospolipid bi layer which basically means som crap attached ot fats makes a liyr cause fats don't like water so they get close and the crap keeps the water out...


WE did not come from monkesy, we had a common ancestor, allong with all other mammals...When you look at the outward apperarence of mammals, they do not lookk the same, but you look at their skeletons limbs, and theye are very similar, even bird look close...More evidence is that embryos all look very similar when developing...

When the statement was made that fish cannot survive out of water, has anyone ever seen a mudskipper, these fish clmb trees, yes climb fucking trees...

Mountains form by plate techtonics where the crust floting on molten rock moves around and bump into eachother, they push up the crust (or down) and mountains and volcano's and earthquakes are formed...

My personal beleifs are that God Created the cosmos and
Earth, He then plaecd the conditions for life to form by itself, then let it be...

But if you say one thing about Evolution NEVER say WE CAME FROM MONKEYS! COMMON ANCESTOR!!!!!

 

Once again is a weak view, how can you claim that only the strongest survived, evolved and adjusted- survival of the §fittest as evolutionists claim? Have you ever studied animals, these animals are not just brutal beings trying to survive, moving on instict without even bothering to care about anything else. Did you know some animals like the penguin, some birds and some sea animals risk their lives to save their children, a zebra which has escaped from danger runs back to tr to save and alarm other members of the flock, if they only think of surviving then how could these animals show compassion and so much care for their children where upon a certain bird plays injured so as to make the predator more intrested in it self other than its eggs. If it is all about instinct that came from one source then it is very weird indeed for you to assume that every animal with all these tons of different features and different instincts came to know all this by way of chance, some lobsters can migrate huge distances and find the correct path without ever had been there before while other animals like the bat can localize a small worm under a stone which is located under a pile if cloths in complete darkness! Insects are a whole new chapter, the can build such incredible societies such as ants, termits and bees, how can the bee exacly tell the remaining bees were he founded the honey, some researchers show that the bee does a ceratin dance to show the direction of the flowers to the other bees, how can it do this by way of instinct? I can answer that question:

68. And your Lord inspired the bee, saying: "Take you habitations in the mountains and in the trees and in what they (humans) erect.''

69. "Then, eat of all fruits, and follow the routes that your Lord made easy (for you).'' There comes forth from their bellies, a drink of varying colors, in which there is a cure for men. There is indeed a sign in that for people who reflect.[Quran 16.68-69]

Think about it, go and buy a book about animals and their fantastic world and try imagine all this fake evolution stuff which you are talking about, you will only realize that this is stupid to claim that it has formed by it self, if you can believe in this evolution stuff you will not find it har to believe this little story about a town:

"One day, a lump of clay, pressed between the rocks in a barren land, becomes wet after it rains. The wet clay dries and hardens when the sun rises, and takes on a stiff, resistant form. Afterwards, these rocks, which also served as a mould, are somehow smashed into pieces, and then a neat, well shaped, and strong brick appears. This brick waits under the same natural conditions for years for a similar brick to be formed. This goes on until hundreds and thousands of the same bricks have been formed in the same place. However, by chance, none of the bricks that were previously formed are damaged. Although exposed to storms, rain, wind, scorching sun, and freezing cold for thousands of years, the bricks do not crack, break up, or get dragged away, but wait there in the same place with the same determination for other bricks to form.
When the number of bricks is adequate, they erect a building by being arranged sideways and on top of each other, having been randomly dragged along by the effects of natural conditions such as winds, storms, or tornadoes. Meanwhile, materials such as cement or soil mixtures form under "natural conditions," with perfect timing, and creep between the bricks to clamp them to each other. While all this is happening, iron ore under the ground is shaped under "natural conditions" and lays the foundations of a building that is to be formed with these bricks. At the end of this process, a complete building rises with all its materials, carpentry, and installations intact.

Of course, a building does not only consist of foundations, bricks, and cement. How, then, are the other missing materials to be obtained? The answer is simple: all kinds of materials that are needed for the construction of the building exist in the earth on which it is erected. Silicon for the glass, copper for the electric cables, iron for the columns, beams, water pipes, etc. all exist under the ground in abundant quantities. It takes only the skill of "natural conditions" to shape and place these materials inside the building. All the installations, carpentry, and accessories are placed among the bricks with the help of the blowing wind, rain, and earthquakes. Everything has gone so well that the bricks are arranged so as to leave the necessary window spaces as if they knew that something called glass would be formed later on by natural conditions. Moreover, they have not forgotten to leave some space to allow the installation of water, electricity and heating systems, which are also later to be formed by chance. Everything has gone so well that "coincidences" and "natural conditions" produce a perfect design.

If you have managed to sustain your belief in this story so far, then you should have no trouble surmising how the town's other buildings, plants, highways, sidewalks, substructures, communications, and transportation systems came about." Darwinish Refuted

You try to form a fairtalelike picture where cells are easy and nothing really unsual when its among those things which are among the most complicated. If I have understod you correctly you claim that
DNZ/RNA/tRNa are simple and formed by them selves even though RNA is extremly difficult to form in a lab under the best condition and you claim that it came under lesser conditions? If we now assume that it did come under these conditions then how can RNA only one nucleotide chain "decide" to replicate, what did it use to accomplish this? Secondly how can you expect these things to form protein when RNA for instance only contains information about the protein, will a blueprint for a car create a car by it self?

 

cabdirazzaq

Your actual personal thoughts are interesting.
Your quotes from a book you claim as truth..purile.

Have you ever considered basing you life on YOUR thoughts...
Not the rubbish religion calls reason??

Occam bases his life and his ethic/morality on what HE thinks...And he still lives..
And prospers. And is happy.

Occam

 

The reason some animal try and save their young is a principle you learn in Bio class not Qur'an class...R selected organism are usually amaller and have large numbers of young, they also don't ususll tkae that much care in protecting the, (like fish), K selected organisms (us) are generally larger, and take care of their young cause they are more helpless then R organisms...You know what, when you talk about faiy tales (and im not dogging you here, irespect the beleif in creationism) but people and life forming cause God says "Be", doen still not answer everything,

like how come , if the great flood happened (and im not saying you beekive this) how come then are the fossils of animal ass seperated, how come no human remains are found with dinosaurs...how come all around the earth, at the same level, there is a strip of uncommon substance and no dinosaurs are found above it...?

And in your previous statements where you say fish have no kidneys, they do, im lookind a a diagram right now...

The process of evolution, which is a slow one, happens when our sex cells mutate in a small section of its DNA, which inturn would make a new protein, and could make our har coarser for instance, or change the gene for the amount of hair, this mutation could, in fact be benifitial if we lived in a extremely cold climate, and did no live in houses, and all those with this mutant gene would have a natural advantage over those who don't...

Evolution can hapen without being natural as well, wild roses aren't big and bushy like the ones in stores, they were bread for more petals and buiggerones, and other various traits...

 

those who start jumping at earlier ages become basketball players because jumping often increases their tallness. Thus, they bear taller generations. (unless they marry a dwarf).