Dok And Peppy's Mass Debate

So you think that killing animals was originally necessary to atone for our sins then? You think god needed us to slit the throat of a sheep before he could forgive us?

Fucking hell, you wanna hear how you sound! "Some of my best friends are black people.....". I don't give a fuck if they're your blood brothers. You're still judging them by defining the sexual expression of their love as a sin.

How progressive of you. We're all very impressed. There's no misconception involved.... you are prejudiced.

If you belive the Leviticus proclamation of homosexuality as a sin, presumably you believe in the laws of ritual cleanliness?

19: And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
20: And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean.

Do you believe we should ritually clean anything that comes into contact with a menstruating woman?
Oh, and you've still not told us how you feel about cripples. Let me refresh your memory:

16: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
17: Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.
18: For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
19: Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
20: Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken

You've also not told us how you feel about non-virgins getting married:

4: A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.

I repeat: you're a homophobe because you selectively choose to acknowledge scripture that condemns homosexuality as a sin, whilst ignoring other scripture with equally ludicrous pronouncements.

 

if you beleive jesus died for your sins then you know that you have been freed from sin and can (with alot of work) live a life without it, and if you truly beleive that this gift has been given to you to then turn around and carry on sinning it seems to me just doesn't make sense, you do carry on sinning but you start to feel ashamed and start to work at getting over your problems and repenting from them. i beleive that if this is true of you then yes you get a free trip upstairs. and that without this there is gonna be God as a bouncer checking your credentials before you are let in.

I have been reading up on the link you sent me some cool stuff and am going to research Clayborne thanks for the info, so far i have been part of a painting scheme which has worked on our local hospital and a street in one of the poor areas in our city. we have a night bus project starting next week which is just giving out hot chocolate and trying to keep the peace down at our local recreational fields where there is very often violence.

i think the old testament of the bible is pointing toward the new, all of it is true and the law is correct but then Jesus came as a fulfilment of the law,

i guess to say that homosexuals if they beleive in christ and stirve to be living in glory with him are actualy commiting sin in there having sex isn't accepting but if it is sin then it shouldn't be accepted. but it doesn't mean that the people aren't accepted just as i sin doesn't stop me from being acepted and doesn't stop jesus loving me so it is the same for all sinners.

 

Homosexuality (or homosexual intercourse) isn't a sin in any objective sense. You're deciding it's a sin based on your own prejudice. To support this, you refer to a 4,000 yr old passage that may or may not be an accurate translation, that may or may not be the inspired word of god, and that may or may not be utter drivel like so many other similar passages. You're choosing to believe homosexuality is a sin, and then passing the responsibility for your moral choice off onto god.

Ever wonder how so many other christians come to believe homosexuality isn't a sin? It's because there are many different ways to interpret the bible and your faith. You're choosing the homophobic one. Which makes you *drum roll* a homophobe.

 

ok to you i'm a homophobe and it is simply that i don't beleive i am, fair enough.

my whole point was some one saying i'm a sinner isn't them being prejudice as it doesn't actualy mean shit to me 'cause that isn't what i beleive. if i were not a christian and some one said to me "you've been sleeping with a man you're going to hell" i simply wouldn't care, if they then didn't treat me as an equal person because of their beleif that is when i would get pissed off at them and think they were some kind of facist, it's my rights to have what ever beleifs i want and it is only if my beleifs then dictate me to act in ofensive way to a certain people that would make it some kind of facsim which they don't so to me no i'm not a homophobe.

 

doc - i remember on the old forums you posted a fantastic article that you found somewhere. unfortunately i printed it off and then lost it!

it was a letter to an american christian DJ who preached about how wrong homosexuality was, so the writer asked if he should also follow all the other things in the same chapter of the bible, such as burning cows on alters, stoning people to death who have had affairs, not wearing two cloths of the same material, not growing two of the same crops in the same field, etc.etc.

do you still have that article, or could you find it again, coz i would love another copy, and it would probably make an interesting addition to the debate.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

 

Ok, so just being a christian isn't a free path to heaven, you have to live a sin free live as well? That's something pretty heavy to lay on anyone, even St. Francis was guilty of a great many sins both before and after his 'salvation' so it seems a to me that heaven would be empty. Also it might be a good idea to look at what heaven is, many people think that 'gods kingdom will come to earth, 'on earth as it is in heaven' etc, does this mean that we face an empty world one day(likely) or that we are supposed to work towards having the exact word of god as law on earth? I the latter is true then how can we ever be expected to get there?

Shane has a great way with words as well, I saw him giving a lecture a couple of times and he was very inspirational.

Second part of the question to what do you do is of course why do you do it, 'because I want to love my fellow man' is probably an unacceptable answer here, look a bit deeper than that for this one...

Much though I hate to say exactly the same as Dok here but if Jesus attoned for our sins negating the sins described in relation to disabled people/menstration etc then why is he not seen as having attoned for buggery? and why if Jesus negated the old testament have you bothered to read it?

This is a very blinkered view of the situation, to simply cast things which imply an entire way of life into such black and white categories denies human nature, for instance, what of gay rape? is the victim then a sinner as they have had gay sex? Is the teenager exploring their sexuality required to repent for that? there is such a massive moral void there that the bible can't account for it worries me that people try to live by it.

 

You believe homosexuality is a sin. You therefore believe that a sexual relationship between two people of the same sex is an abomination in the eyes of god. That's offensive. You're also judging someone based upon their sexual orientation. You're also choosing to single out homosexuality as a sin despite the many other ridiculous sins listed in Leviticus. You're therefore choosingp to see homosexuality as a sin in preference to other activities. There's no rational justification for this. So you're a homophobe. Sorry if you don't see yourself that way, but that's what you are.

Oh, and you're also ignoring the very specific points I've made about other activities condemned by Leviticus. If you want to be taken seriously, please address these points.

 

i was saying you have to be trying to repent from your sin, not that you have to acheive perfection. and your right about the heaven on earth, and yes jesus antonement is for all sin but if you don't beleive in jesus' atonement and acept it then you cannot benefit from it. but if you don't beleive in jesus then you either beleive in another deity and other laws there for what i beleive in sin doesn't matter to you, or you don't beleive in any deity or sin at all, in which case none of this means shit so why be ofended i'm just living as i feel like not sinning nothing is wrong really is it.

 

Can I just add this from a very interesting thread off the Christianity Forum:

I hope she dosn't mind me quoting her... but I'd like to hear what people have to say about this research.

Love Clairexxx

 

no just this topic is on homosexuality i'll openly admit yeah those other things in their true meanings are sin too, the fact is as jesus said (paraphrased) "the law is to alow us to see and understand our sin, not to condemn us"

 

It's offensive because by branding homosexuality as a sin, you're contributing to the persecution of gay people. Are you aware that many gay people still get beaten up on the streets for holding hands?

 

yeah i am and just like you i'm upset by it, because i beleive they should be alowed to be who ever they want to be without any human judgement. and in no way am i contributing to it sorry. but that just isn't true.

 

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors.They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging."

 

I'm not sure about that. Are you menstruating at the moment? I may not be able to post on the same thread as you

Here ya go.....

 

Bull.. fucking... shit. Of course you're fucking contributing to it!!! You believe homosexuality is a sin. You promote this view by even expressing it. You're advocating a religious position that is the basis for intolerance, hatred and bigotry. Wake the fuck up and stop being so naive.

 

You see Peppy this is the kind of thing I'm completely against about christianity, you're saying that you feel you have to believe this because it's written down and that just isn't the case, your religion doesn't dictate anything to you, especially not christianity which is a pick 'n mix religion at the best of times. You should be dictating to your religion if you want to make any contribution to it. You mentioned evolution of religion earlier in a positive light but allowing your religion to dictate to you only allows for stagnation and living by rules relevant to someone who was alive thousands of years ago.

 

you're safe - i'm not due on for another week!!

i would just like to ask peppy though......

you believe everything in the bible right? do you live by everything in the letter to the DJ?

would you ever sell your daughter to slavery?

would you ever put someone to death for working on the sabbath?

would you ever kill any of your male friends who cut their hair?

do you play football or touch pigs?


coz surely if you still believe what the bible says about homosexuality being a sin then you must believe all the other stuff in it aswell.

if you dont, then arent you just using the bible as an excuse to back up your own beliefs that homosexuality is wrong?

peace and love
stardust
xxx

 

you cut the quote short "if my beleifs then dictate me to act in ofensive way to a certain people that would make it some kind of facsim" i was saying exactly that, that i don't let it dictate to me that i should be queer bashing, and as i said before the law, yes all of it even those fucked up things that seem completely out of place in our society, is to make it visible to us that we have all sinned, and not to condemn us, thanks to jesus we aren't all screwed for our sin, and sorry but no one can say that they have never done something wrong, and i beleive that all sin is sin so i look apon myself just as lowly as i do any one compared to God.

"Bull.. fucking... shit. Of course you're fucking contributing to it!!! You believe homosexuality is a sin. You promote this view by even expressing it. You're advocating a religious position that is the basis for intolerance, hatred and bigotry. Wake the fuck up and stop being so naive. "

just because other people use the same part of scripture to justify there violence does not link it in any way to me. in the same way many parts of scripture are used by the KKK to condone there violent acts of racism as well. are you going to claim i'm racist as well?

 

You're confusing two issues. You're a homophobe because you choose to label homosexuality as a sin, selecting it from a wide range of other possible candidates in Leviticus.

Supporting homophobic prejudices is certainly closely linked with creating a culture where violence towards homosexuals is condoned. It's precisely this sort of ignorance that makes me lose all respect for christians.

 

Ok, obviously you believe sex before marriage is wrong, what about gay sex after marriage, does that then stop being a sin? I may be able to see the logic in that even if I don't agree with it.