Does organised religion have a useful social function?

Discussion in 'Agnosticism and Atheism' started by Bilby, Feb 4, 2020.

  1. Bilby

    Bilby Lifetime Supporter and Freerangertarian Super Moderator

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    There has been in Australia, a Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse reported that there were at least 1,800 alleged Jehovah’s Witness victims (in a membership of about 68,000).
    So per capita, or statistically, the incidence of abuse was much higher than among Catholics (4444 allegations in a membership of about 5.3 million).
    Furthermore, the Jehovah’s Witness church reported none of the 1,800 abuses to law enforcement; hasn’t acknowledged the victims; didn’t say sorry; and refused to join the redress scheme. In fact, it often blamed the victims, and then kept them silent via a unique method of shunning (Catholics don’t do this).
     
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  2. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    yes, its useful function, the whole motivation for its existence, is to discourage bullying.

    unfortunately, once a belief gets a name brand and a degree of popular acceptance, it tends to get stood on its head,
    making excuses for the desire to be feared, encouraging the hatred of logic, denying the harm that is caused by doing so.

    this down side isn't universal though, neither between beliefs nor within the followers of any one.
    and many people find mutual support among others who share their perspective.

    but no belief can take the place of a conscience, so it really is a very mixed bag.

    and the social services provided by many beliefs are an undiniably good thing.
    though one has to question how needed those services would be,
    if conditions resulting from their perspective, not their origeonal perspective of their creators,
    but the popular perspectives, what they create statistically, of people who identify themselves with them,
    without looking at all deeply into what their founders attempted to promote.
    which was generally a kind of universally mutual consideration.

    so i come neither to praise nor condemn, but to look at realistically.

    that the unknown is unknown, and being unknown, among other things, owes nothing to what people tell each other.

    if people kept that in mind, they would realize that a heaven without universal consideration, is just another name for hell,
    no matter how powerful its god or how many, or any of the rest of it.

    so yes, there are some useful social functions that are served by at least some factions within virtually all religions.
    while unfortunately, just as often, encouraging social and cultural problems.
     
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  3. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    It's said clearly enough :) I simply think you're wrong about the Bible: its quite obvious also for a large part what men thought God meant.
    Since it's factual knowledge how it got compiled in the 4th century its curious to in this day and age (and with that knowledge in mind) believe its literally Gods word.
     
  4. tumbling.dice

    tumbling.dice Visitor

    Because the Bible says so. :tonguewink:
     
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  5. Varmint

    Varmint Member

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    While the new testament may have been compiled in the 4th century, the letters that comprise it started circulating within a few years after the resurrection, rendering whatever point you were trying to make invalid. The old testament had been around for centuries, and was read in temples and synagogues throughout Israel and elsewhere long before that.
    The old testament is considered to be the new testament concealed, while the new testament is considered to be the old testament revealed. You won't find much in one that isn't in the other.

    Scientific research proves there are a remarkable number of indisputable facts in the old testament that have only been proven in recent years through research and archeology. This goes beyond mere geolocation of cities and events. It applies to advanced scientific knowlege, regardless of whether it's spelled out as such. You seem to be more interested in listening to those who will say and do anything to discredit it than those who are, or were neutral. You've missed a lot of good information. The pablum we were fed in schools was a bunch of bull.
     
  6. tumbling.dice

    tumbling.dice Visitor

    “Science can destroy religion by ignoring it as well as by disproving its tenets. No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, the nonexistence of Zeus or Thor, but they have few followers now.”

    ― Arthur C. Clarke, Childhood's End
     
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  7. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Not really. And 'whatever point' makes it sound like you don't know what point i was making in the first place?

    But the fact that many of those authors are known already implies that part of the bible was at best 'inspired by God' or something. Not literally Gods word.
    These things proof that the authors of the bible lived in those regions and that a lot is based on real events, yes. It does not prove its Gods word. I'm not trying to challenge your faith or anything, just that assertion.

    It just seems like that. I'm ready to be convinced. So far I simply wasn't (not just talking about on here or insisting you do it ;))
     
  8. Varmint

    Varmint Member

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    Well, given my current abilities for conveying ideas and convincing anyone of anything, I'd say your statement is quite a relief. I thank you very much, and I'll also leave it to others far better at such things to convince you.

    As an aside, I come from an athiest or heathen background. When I agreed to go visit a church the first time, I ended up going down front and giving my life to God. I did the same thing every service for the next three weeks, at which time a woman asked me what I was praying for. I told her "Salvation". She looked at me like I was nuts and said: "Mike, He's GOD! He heard you the first time!" Having no etiquette, much less Christian etiquette, I wanted to blurt out "Are you $h!!ting me??!! NOBODY listens to me the first time!" What I DID say was "Are you sure...?" She looked like she met a martian, but she assured me it was so. I've since learned that, not only does He hear me the first time, He LISTENS. That is, He not only hears what I say, He also hears what I MEANT. For me, this was more amazing than radio and electronics or sex, both of which are pretty darn spectacular, in my opinion. At that time (1974) I knew NOTHING at all about Him or the Bible, but I can be a quick student if I'm interested. That woman who asked what I was praying for? She's the sister of the crazy lady on the CB that started talking to me about Jesus and the Bible and later talked me into visiting their church. The CB lady is married to a pastor in a town just north of where I live, and her sister attends the same church I currently go to. What a small world we live in.
     
  9. Dax

    Dax Members

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    "The late Bertrand Russell wrote in his book Why I Am Not A Christian admitted the Christian church has contributed to western civilisation."

    Not sure about this, but the Christian church sure as hell has contributed to the deaths of many, many people all over the planet..
     
  10. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    The Bible is essentialy an anthology of writings in different genres of men from different times with different agendas, riddled with redundancies and inconsistencies--comparable to Norton's Anthology of English Literature. To say we should follow it literally would be like saying we should follow Norton's anthology literally.
     
  11. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Not exactly "a few years". Paul's letters, which were the first we know of, date from about 49-67 c.e.--over 15 years after the death of Jesus.
    Scholars are still debating when the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible) was written, but most agree parts were written in different eras--some as early as the 7th century c.e., some as recently as the post-exilic period after 539 B.C.E., when they seem to have gone through their final editing, although it probably existed as oral tradition much earlier. .
    Considered by whom? Considering that the Old Testament consists of 39 books (993 pages) and the New Testament consists of 27 books (288 pages) that claim seems questionable. There seems to be lots in each Testament that isn't contained in the other.
    Another dubious claim, but without specifics hard to evaluate. Have you kept up with archaeological discoveries
    of Kenyon, Dever, Finkelstein, and Ben-Yosef that cast some doubt on some of the factual details?
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  12. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Praise God! I know you're saved. But I hope your faith isn't so fragile that you must support it with statements that others might find dubious because they're shaky in logic or supporting evidence.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  13. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    As have secular and atheist regimes like U.S. S. R. , Mao's China, Pol Pot, the Kims in Korea, etc., not to mention the French Revolution. But Quakers, Methodists, and lots of others have pretty good records for non-violence. So it doesn't have to be that way.

    Besides violence, another problem with some forms of religion is what Arterburn and Felton call "toxic faith syndrome", characterized by mind-crippling addiction to rigid, dogmatic thinking.
    5 Warning signs of a toxic faith
    21 Beliefs of a Toxic Faith–Stephen Arterburn
    Charisma Magazine
    http://www.cultrecover.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/TOXIC_FAITH.pdf
    This syndrome is most characteristic of cults, but can be found in ordinary Christian congregations, as well. Jesus gave us a test for identifying these tendencies. The toxic sects bear "bitter fruit": narrow minded bigotry, a sense of superiority and hostility toward outsiders, fear-based attitudes toward God and salvation, a crippling sense of guilt, dependency on the group or leader, and a stifling of individuality. I attend a fellowship group with atheists and agnostics, some of whom have been victims of these kinds of churches and have a negative opinion of Christianity. I think the best remedy is positive, healthy faith, which I'm fortunate to experience in my church and other bible study groups I'm involved with.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
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  14. Varmint

    Varmint Member

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    Has anyone ever told you that you're an insufferable bore...?
     
  15. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    There must be something about having a rodent as an avatar which doesn't agree with Okie's posting style. Personally, I find Okie's posts interesting and informative.
     
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  16. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Has anybody ever told you you're a closed minded bigot?
     
  17. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Thank you!
     
  18. Bilby

    Bilby Lifetime Supporter and Freerangertarian Super Moderator

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    Hey guys remember point 4 of posting guidelines.
     
  19. I'minmyunderwear

    I'minmyunderwear Newbie

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    are we supposed to actually memorize these, in order?
     
  20. Bilby

    Bilby Lifetime Supporter and Freerangertarian Super Moderator

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    Makes no sense to me. What does this post say about you?

    If you want to post up an opinion, great go ahead but if it is not relevant to an existing thread , start a new thread. If your thread is not all that relevant to any existing forum post in Random Thoughts.
     

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