Does organised religion have a useful social function?

Discussion in 'Agnosticism and Atheism' started by Bilby, Feb 4, 2020.

  1. Bilby

    Bilby Lifetime Supporter and Freerangertarian Super Moderator

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    I had no upbringing so my involvement with a church taught me what should have been part of my upbringing. I would not doubt the sincerity of most churches,but I came to realize they are clueless. I quite like the vibe of going inside a church with only a few people inside.
     
  2. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    There are a couple of ideas in your post I'd like to pick up on. You ask if less sophisticated people would benefit from having a "fear based organized religion." I know some people who have come to religion through recovery groups. They think their "Higher Power" (whom they come to call God) is central to their recovery. In a sense, it reminds me of Dumbo and the magic feather. Maybe they could fly on their own, but they don't want to risk it, and I wouldn't want to do anything to mess with their lifeline. I wouldn't call their faith necessarily fear-based, in the sense of a punitive God (although there's fear that without Him, they'd be back in the gutter). In the various progressive Christian groups I hang with, fear of God or punishment isn't what keeps us going. Our God and religion is an expression of our ideals and aspirations that give meaning to our existence. We think of God as the great mystery "in which we live and move and have our being". Does it require a level of sophistication to hold that view of religion? Maybe. We're all pretty well-educated. But love of God and neighbor seem natural enough that I think most people could get the hang of it. Empathy and reciprocal altruism are found even among non-human species, and the world religions give them focus through systems of symbols and ideation.

    I also meet regularly with a group of atheists and agnostics for table fellowship and discussion. I was leary at first, but I soon came to realize that they're good people, not readily distinguishable from my church group friends. I even persuaded a conservative Catholic friend (a Trump supporting Republican, no less) to join us for supper, and it was an eye-opener for him. He now eats with us on a regular basis.

    Recently, though, we've all been treated to the spectacle of national politicians losing their souls (or at least displaying their lack of them) on television. These men and women have given themselves over to false gods--wealth, status, power, sensual indulgence--and it disfigures them horribly. Like Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov, too many seem to conclude that "without God, everything is permitted". Self-proclaimed "Christians" preach and conduct themselves in ways that resemble nothing so much as the Pharisees mentioned in the Bible. I strongly fear that when people and nations abandon honor and moral principles and give themselves over to such vices, they'll pay a heavy price. "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?" (Mark 8:36) Is that fear based? In a way it is, but it's not fear of personal consequences that keeps me and most of my friends in line. It's the feeling that doing right is inherently satisfying, and has the best chance of producing happiness and interpersonal harmony.
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    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
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  3. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    I only like old churches. Where you can almost feel a connection with the past. The newer the church the less eager i am to go in it.
     
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  4. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Old, new--wherever two or three are gathered!
     
  5. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I think that Okiefreak has a pretty good handle on church folks and non church folks. I was sent to Sunday school and like ZZ Top said--"lots a' nice girls éh." So that's why I went. I taught my kids--never make fun of those less fortunate than you---never lie,steal and conduct yourself as if everything you do will be published in a newspaper. Be kind to people and animals and step in to protect those that are being bullied. I'm not sure what else I could or can do to do any better as a person, personally or professionally. Obviously, many need and use religion for their own betterment and for those around them. WITH MANY EXCEPTIONS! The pay is certainly very, very good for some that one could put into the class of pure hucksters, and those I detest. I have always felt that humans are not really meant to know or at least cannot really determine the true nature of our existence. I have read the whole bible years and years ago with a friend and well--here I am--I suppose agnostic would best describe me. If humans were to have the true answer--there could only be one religion. Just my opinion--doesn't mean shit--just one more biological creature floppin' through life. I'll take the karma, if such exists. So it goes.
     
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  6. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Religion can create homicidal maniacs and yet I heard that money from the 7oo club is spent on drilling wells so some in Africa can get clean water. Credit where credit is due.
     
  7. Bilby

    Bilby Lifetime Supporter and Freerangertarian Super Moderator

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    This an anecdote from a devout atheist. There was a man when he was at school was always in trouble with the teachers. After he left school he was constantly in trouble with the police. One day he became a Jehovah Witness and stared to behave himself. Maybe his parents should have fed him butter not margarine.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  8. olderndirt

    olderndirt Senior Member

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    I belong to organized religion, but it is definitely not fear based. Tomorrow we will provide food for over 200 needy families, an example of how we help people help others.
     
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  9. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Yeah, there are definitely some kinds of people religion helps to get on the straight and narrow, like my buddy I mentioned earlier who found Jesus in a 12-step program. Religion is a near-universal phenomenon for a reason. It evolved for several reasons, one of which seems to be to counteract the disruptive effects of unbridled egoism. Some might argue how much better off a person is making a pest of himself/herself with door-to-door Watchtower visits, but I think as a trade-off, it's probably a step forward. What would I be without religion? Probably lost. It's what sustains me.
     
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  10. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Religion counteract egoism? You mean the thing people have fought wars over for centuries, used to justify: rape and pillaging lands, lineages of power, xenophobia, child molesting, bribing people, paying off political interests, preventing women's rights, and believe it has a book that is magical?

    That Religion?

    If God doesn't exist, the personal God is basically an infallible perfect archetype. That's like egoism on steroids.
     
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  11. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

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    You know that comedian that says "I think drugs have done some good things..." Bill something or other, I can't remember. I think Religion has a true meaning and a colored history; much like the U.S. and slavery. It's like, "that U.S.A.?!" :)

    I'm no religious zealot I just think that religion provides a sanctuary for the faithful. It's a good for mankind sort of a thing. I think that reform is possible too.

    There are problems in the Catholic church. Islam does have extremists. But those are exceptions to the rule in my book; though not excusable. And I'm all for accountability. They seem to have removed several cardinals/bishops etc. And I don't think Catholicism will ever fully recover from the damage. People aren't going to forget that so many times there was abuse of the worst possible kind. Well... that's relative, but anyway.

    I used to rebel against religion. As I grow older I begin to understand it. It has a place now in my mind. Whereas before it was abstract, now it serves purpose. That's better than it seeming to just detract from my juvenile agenda.

    EDIT: the above was meant to include something to the effect of "I think religion has done some good things". It was the punchline! I can't believe I forgot it. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
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  12. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    It seems like such an odd cognitive dissonance in one breath to liken religion to slavery and then the next to promote it.

    I think your perspective is a microsom of a lot of thought on the subject, but it baffles me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  13. Kirstie

    Kirstie Members

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    I'm an agnostic atheist.
    I 100% absolutely respect Christians, largely because it paved the way for our way of life. I'll always respect that religion, regardless.
    Personally though, religion is a load of utter bollocks.

    You die, you become a ghost (if that!).
    Like, seriously. Really... and yet we're classed as racist for slagging off any religion.
     
  14. I'minmyunderwear

    I'minmyunderwear Newbie

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    hopefully not cosby, considering the "good things" drugs have done for him.
     
  15. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Bill Hicks, he died in his early 30's from cancer.
     
  16. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

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    I think it's Hicks. :)

    upload_2020-2-7_16-56-33.jpeg
     
  17. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

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    Sorry.

    I probably didn't convey that as I intended to. I've been mistyping lots of things lately.

    What I meant to say is the situation with religion having a clouded history is much like the history of the U.S. with slavery; only in that, in my opinion, neither is truly evil. Both have their benefit to mankind, perhaps even including the current administration as they expose the worst aspects of the political realm with the unfortunate side effect of policy and appointments among other things.

    But yes, you're right. I do promote religion; though I don't practice it. Perhaps I should practice what I preach, but I'm not there yet...
     
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  18. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Hmmm... Very interesting post. I assumed I knew you more than I do, apparently.
     
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  19. Varmint

    Varmint Member

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    Now THAT was totally unexpected!
    I believe that the bible is what God said, while religion is what some man thinks God meant. Probably not the best way of saying it, but there it is. I think that fear-based and performance-based "religion" tends to be vain, producing nothing but more fretting, worry, anxiety and anger. In truth, ANY religion that produces no godly fruit is vain. None of us are worthy of Gods grace and forgiveness, and the sooner we can swallow our pride and admit it, the sooner we can enjoy real change....in US, rather than in others. Face it: We are a world of sinners, and we aren't sinful because we sin; we sin because we are sinful. It's our nature. Be nice if sin beat the snot out of you every time you try to enjoy it, but instead it feels pretty good. Relationships are destroyed because of it, kingdoms rise and fall because of it, and people spend their entire lives looking for answers because of it.
     
  20. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    By counteracting egoism, I mean giving people a source of beliefs and values higher than themselves that binds them to others in community. Even non-humans have rudimentary empathy and reciprocal altruism that serves as a basis for cooperative behavior, but they tend to be extended mainly to genetic kin. Sociobiologist and atheist E.O. Wilson (The Meaning of Human Existence) thinks that even before our species took its final form, the human brain developed a specialized module containing the demands of society to compete with the individual's self-oriented survival needs. This was an adaptation reflecting the survival benefits of cooperation. Evolutionary psychologist and atheist Steven Pinker agrees that human behavior "comes from an internal struggle among mental modules with differing agendas and goals.", and that this resembles "the Judeo-Christian theory of human nature" as well as Freud's psychoanalytic model (The Blank Slate, p. 40) In Freudian terms, this would be a contest between id and ego, on the one hand, and superego on the other hand. It was the central thesis of Durkheim's classic study of religion that religion functioned primarily to promote social solidarity. The Elementary Forms of Religious Life.

    Unfortunately, this sense of social solidarity is often achieved at the expense of out-group relations. In fact, one of the major dynamics of human survival is coalition formation against rival groups, and regrettably religion can assist in these divisions. Next to conspicuous racial and linguistic differences, differences in belief and values provide the readiest means of distinguishing the "good guys" from the "bad guys". Sargon I of Akkad, the world's first empire builder, was a genius at using religion to justify military expansion. He even made his daughter priestess of Ishtar, the goddess of sex and war, and she became the world's first theologian, developing a justification for his militarism. And of course it still goes on today, as recently as the National Prayer Breakfast. Jesus, along with other great religious leaders, preached peace, love and understanding, and taught us that love of God and neighbor were the greatest commandments, but often the message gets twisted and perverted into its very opposite. That may be the biggest challenge facing us today. It's a problem for secular religions (Communism, nationalism, objectivism, etc.) as well. The empire builders, once successful, also had the challenge of keeping their subjects from each other's throats, so there are countervailing forces to reinforce the empathy and reciprocal altruism originally reserved for kinsmen, but extended to strangers by religious ideation. Commerce and conquest went along way toward making the feelings of universal brotherhood and sisterhood a reality. (Robert Wright, The Evolution of God.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
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