do you think theres a god??????

hi marie
what sort of god are you referring to.... the christian version? what other qualities come with this god? or is god very simply, love?

peace,
sophia

 

i think all religions are referring to the same principle but they all label it differently...what other qualities come with it? beats me, i am only human, i have not the answers...but damn god is everywhere, in a budding flower that opens, in a child's smile, in the mountains, in the beautiful sunrise, in the passing of energy from this existence to the next....
what other qualities do i feel go with GOD? i would think with love comes peace and with peace and love come compassion and understanding....people take the christian god, take christs words and use them to crucify one another...they use them to judge and then the people who use them to judge make the peoples who have been judged hate christ....this wasnt his intent...i feel buddha, christ, ghandi, mohammad, moses, all these people were at a higher awareness and therefore closer to the light, love, compassion of God, whether he be a person or an energy, it doesnt much matter....this energy is love.....


lol....its ok, if you disagree...i could be wrong, but this is how i feel...

 

Whoooooo! It's going to be a long night!

Sophia,
In a way, I shouldn't really reply to you, because you've mis-read some of what I said, and put words into my mouth. And I don't like it when people do that! But I still want to reply anyway since you otherwise seem to argue intelligently and ask some valid questions...

When did I say God would condemn us for using rationality?

This 'rationality' you speak of... where is it now?

All these beleifs you mention are:

a) theories, not events; and
b) no longer held by anyone on the planet (or at least held by very few)

And all those are are theories. Theories are easy to make. My analogy was describing an actual event, which was a comparison to what happened with jesus. I was explaining how easily we humans dismiss things that, although actual events (not theories), do not immediately affect us.

Rationality says that if no one beleives in it, its likeliness to be true is not overwhelming. That's not to say it's not true, but mathematically, the probability of one person knowing the truth and the rest of humanity being wrong, and the probability of that person being me (or you) is an impossibility. So I'd rather stick to a widely held beleif rather than dedicate my life to studying every crackpot theory ever conceived, just in case there's a glimmer of truth behind it.

As it happens, I personally feel that I don't need to study religions other than my own any more (I say need because I will always study other religions) because, as far as I'm concerned, I have found the truth about our creator. To use another analogy: in a murder investigation, you could theoretically spend the rest of your life dusting for fingerprints... there will always be somewhere else you could dust for fingerprints; but if the murderer has already confessed, then why bother looking elsewhere?

You're putting words into my mouth! I never said anything of the sort. The notion that people should beleive things they're told without any scepticism is absurd, and it's not something I would ever agree with. Please, read what I said again.

A witty quote; any oxymoron makes me laugh. But hardly an authorititive rule applicable to all circumstances! If a murder victim's diary leads police to the murderer, then past revelation is extremely relevant!

If God does ever visit earth in human form, we're never going to know about future visitations (since they're in the future). And visitations within our own lifetime are extremely unlikely. So if we were looking for a visitation, the past would be the only place to look.

I didn't say "but you still demand something better than a millennia-old note". If The Bible were the only "evidence" that God was prepared to give us of his existence, then I would agree with you. But that's not the case at all. God communicates with people all over the world today, all the time. Okay, he's never taken human form since Jesus (allegedly), and he hasn't (allegedly) written any books since The Bible. But he still communicates. I told you about one such communication with me. That fact in itself suggests that his evidence is more than a millennia-old note.

Okay, that's not necessarily going to get an answer. It would be nice if it did, but it probably won't. But by doing that you have done something that most people don't ever do. The whole point I was trying to make is that most people don't even consider that there could be a God, and would never in a million years "talk to themselves" like that.

Most people are too wrapped up in popular culture, or hobbies, to stop and think about what really matters, and ask themselves if there's a God. And all I'm saying is that that's a shame since if there is a God then they'll never find out without even trying to communicate.

Yeah, but those people are all nuts. No one knows what Jesus or Mary looked like, so if you see the face of a man or a woman in a cheeseburger the probability of it being the face of one particular man or woman out of all the people who ever lived is phenomenally small!

And anyone who takes hallucinogenic drugs, and then proclaims to have had a spiritual vision, is a total moron!

That seems like a reasonable conclusion, at face value. It is hard to see why God doesn't just flash a big sign saying "yes" in front of their face every time someone asks if he exists. I can't explain it. I don't need to, personally, because I know what I believe. I just wish people were more open minded to the possibility that God could be real.

Looking at it physically, you have no sign of God in your daily life. So it's easy to conclude that he's not there. But when you think about it, if God were real then you wouldn't have any evidence of him in your daily life, because he wouldn't be there. The only place you would find evidence would be in places where God specifically chooses to talk to people, which is not an everyday occurence.

But people (myself included) have received communications from God, so obviously, if you care to believe me, he is talking to some of us!

Assuming I, and those like me, are telling the truth (and not insane), one must ask not why God never speaks, but why he speaks so infrequently and so subtly.

I don't have an answer. Perhaps others here do, but I don't. My faith is new, and I have a lot to learn, and still many unanswered questions. But here are some possibilities (admittedly, each possibility raises many further questions):

1. Perhaps God doesn't want his existence to be so obvious that it becomes an accepted scientific fact. Perhaps to test our faith, or to allow each of us to personally find him of our own accord, without having the choice made for us.

2. Perhaps it's part of free will? God is just trying to let us live our lives and considers direct communication an infringement on our rights. If everyone was absolutely certain that God was there all the time watching everything they did, perhaps humans wouldn't feel "free" to live their lives as they pleased, so God assumes more of a 'Big Brother' rôle.

3. Perhaps it is very difficult for God to communicate with us for some reason? I can't justify the science behind it, but perhaps he can only communicate with someone who believes he's there, and the more a person believes, the easier it is for him to communicate with them. (If this were the case, it would probably have a lot to do with free will.)

4. Perhaps God just doesn't choose to talk to people all the time? Plain and simple choice; no other reason.

To use an analogy I've used in the past: if I was a millionaire and I wanted to offer a free car to every person in my town, I wouldn't necessarily turn up at each person's door with the car. I may spread the word I was giving away free cars, and see who turned up to collect the cars, and those who turned up would truly deserve it. I'm not trying to say that God is like this; but it's a possibility.

Maybe it's all matter of give and take? I'm sure you would agree that the people who give you a present on your birthday are slightly more likely to get one back on their birthday, right? Maybe it's about manners, or thoughtfulness, or respect?

I personally think you have to show a bit of respect for God and take him more seriously if you want him to take you seriously. I don't know exactly what God' personality is like. But if I were God and there were humans who absolutely and totally didn't believe in me, and they asked me if I existed — almost just to prove I didn't — then I wouldn't take a particular favour to them and wouldn't be in a hurry to comunicate with them. I'm not trying to preach about God's personality, because I don't know, but that's a possible explanation.

Oh and then you have the issue of Jesus. Jesus said that he is the way to God. And many believe that you cannot have any kind of relationship (ie communication) with God unless it is through Jesus. That is because (allegedly) sin is what cuts us off from God, and you cannot be free of sin unless it is through Jesus' salvation. So, what many people believe is that you will not get any kind of communication from God unless you accept that Jesus died for you and you believe Jesus was the son of God, which you can't do if you don't believe! Almost paradoxical! This way of thinking would mean that faith has to come before your hard proof.

Personally, I would disagree with this since God spoke to me before I became a Christian, but perhaps I was an unusual case, as I'd already shown God that I took him seriously? I dunno.

Okay, so you think my theory that the sun and the moon are a sign from God is ludicrous. Would you like to be more specific? For example, what would you change about the sun and the moon to make them a "better" sign? Or, just tell me, if you were God and you wanted to leave a great big sign that could be seen all over the world, how would your sign manifest itself?

First of all, to my knowledge, there isn't a great record of people having religion-specific visions following prayers asking which is the right religion. If there were (and especially if they were all the same vision), then it's something I would take extremely seriously, despite my own beleifs.

But, the thing is, just because I tell you I had a vision of a cross, I don't expect you to believe in Christianity. You may do that, of course. But the point is that I am not you. You can never know for sure what I saw, nor if I am sane, nor how intelligent I am, not how scientifically valid my basis was for considering what I saw to be a vision rather than some kind of trick of the eye. I don't expect you to, because I wouldn't necessarily change my religious faith based on what another individual saw.

To be completely honest, if I heard someone credible (david koresh is not someone I'm too familiar with, but from what I hear he was a dellusional paranoid, which places his credibility firmly on the low side) saying they had a religion-specific vision and were convinced that that was the true religion then I would take it very seriously. As it happens, I've had my own, which, for me, somewhat invalidates contrary visions experienced by other people who are not me. But this is getting personal!

I never said I felt a divine prescence. Maybe other people have, but I've never "felt" anything! I just saw a cross appear. It was only one of my senses: sight. Nothing else happened.

[cont...]

 

[continued...]

I'll describe what I saw...

The image wasn't in the room (ie in the 'real world'), it was in my eyes, similar to the coloured eye-blobs you get when you look directly at a light then shut your eyes. The only difference was, I'd been in the dark quite a while and it came from nowhere, was perfectly formed, and brighter than any eye-blob I'd ever had or have had since. Initially it formed out of a darker, more formless blob, but within seconds it had formed a perfect cross and got really really bright. It stayed for quite a while (maybe an hour) then faded.

During the time it was with me, I had plenty of opportunity to consider whether or not it was a trick of the eye and I had come to the definite conclusion that it was not. I had the 'vision' 3 years ago and many times I have tried to recreate it by putting myself into the exact same situation, experimenting with flashing lights and prodding my eyes, and willing a cross to appear. Nothing has ever come even remotely close to what I saw.

I'm quite sure that anyone who saw what I saw would have been amazed. It made me laugh out loud, it was so amazing! But given the context of the 'vision' (during a prayer where I was asking God for help in which religion to turn to), and the context of the start of the 'vision' (seconds after proclaiming "I don't want to die!"), I personally have no choice but to conclude that it was a vision from God telling me which was the true religion. I don't expect others to necessarily believe me, or agree with my conclusions, but that is my conclusion, and I think people have made religious conclusions based on far less than that.

Yes, the mind is a wonderful thing and it can play tricks on you. So I can't rule out the possiblity that this was all a coincidence, or a trick of the mind. I don't think that's impossible; I'm just of the strong opinion that it's highly improbable. And, personally, if my mind were so flawed that it could be so cruel to me, and nothing I saw could ever be trusted, then what I believed wouldn't matter, even to me. Nothing could be trusted; nothing could be believed; nothing would really matter.

If God did exist, yet my 'vision' was somehow 'phoney', and God allowed me to see that, then God would suck! (No offence, God!) But if I can't trust my own eyes, then what can I trust? Nothing. And there's no point believing anything. At all. About anything.

So I have the choice whether to live in a world where you can believe things, or whether nothing can be believed. There's no way to know for certain of course, because, by definition, it could never be proven. So I choose to believe in beleif; to believe that I have senses that I can rely on, and truth is not unobtainable. And religious 'visions' are something that can happen.

Having said all that... my 'vision' was the basis for my faith in Christianity. Since then, I have learnt a lot about Christianity and the vision has become less important. I'm not going to speculate, because it would be unrealistic, but the chances are I would still be a Christian even without having seen what I saw. The 'vision' definitely put me in the right direction though.

Impossible to know for certain, as I said. But why would my mind 'desire' Christianity?

I never had any particular 'preference' for any particular religion. Okay, I live in the UK; the vast majority of us are atheist, but of the religious people, Christians are definitely the majority. There are churches everywhere! But this meant nothing to me. I'd never really met any Christians until after I became one. The only religious person I knew at the time was my girlfriend who was a Buddhist. Given how crazy I was about her, it would have made perfect sense for my mind to show me a Dharmachakra, not a cross! That way, I could have shared my faith with my girlfriend. My ex didn't like me talking about any other religion other than Buddhism!

You were a Bible thumper? You don't sound like one! I've never heard of "fear" being a part of Christianity! I've never feared letting God down. All Christians let God down; that's the deal. The whole point is that humanity lives in sin, which is why God saved us from our sins (allegedly). No human can fail to 'let God down', but he's cool with that.

Perhaps (and this is merely a speculation!) if you associated Christianity with negative emotions such as fear, then you had good reason to reject it, and to go on to deny/denounce it? Perhaps if you had a more positive perspective on Christianity things might be different? The word of Jesus is universally referred to as 'The Gospel' (which is Greek for "The Good News"). Everything Jesus said was uplifting and joyful. It's not about fear!

I'm not trying to patronise you here, you obvioulsy know more about this than I do since you used to be a Christian, and I've only been one a couple of years. But I hope you haven't completely missed the point: I want to make it clear that God (allegedy) loves you and he (allegedly) forgives you, and me, for our sins. And that's the whole point of Christianity! And that's why Christians are all so happy all the time. Okay, I was always happy anyway, so I haven't changed a bit since I became a Christian, but most people do change when they become one, and it's supposed to be a joyful and liberating experience!

I've never know a Christian who was 'fearful'. That, to me, seems like the complete opposite of Christianity. Christians have nothing to fear at all! They are forgiven, and have spiritual harmony (allegedly).

Haha, your questions are amusing. I can't really guarantee a good (or correct) answer, since this is all new to me. But from what I have learnt, here is an attempt...

First of all, details such as these do not define, or prove a religious faith. They are mere trivialities. They may do a lot to discredit the religion, if they are utterly absurd, but they are still trivialities, and not integral to the faith itself. If you are reading about Adam and Eve in The Bible, then you're doing so under the assumption (or at least a hypothesis) that God wrote it and it's true. But if you're trying to determine if God is real, you're not going to start with Genesis.

Anyway. So why did God put a tree in the garden and tell them not to touch it? The answer is that the tree itself was meaningless. It could have been a rock, a flower, a hill. It was just a symbol. A symbol of defiance. God was saying "I am giving you the freedom to defy me. I don't want you to. And you don't need to. But because I want to give you total freedom, I will give you that choice."

God made us to love him. But as I'm sure you know, you can't "make" someone love you. It has to be free choice. Like in those old films where someone has a love potion that makes a girl fall for them — it's meaningless so in the end they undo the spell because they want to be loved freely and not through force.

So, he made us so that we have total free will and if we want to we can reject him. We can choose not to obey him. So he designated one of the trees in the garden of evil as 'defiance'. Eve was free to go to it. God didn't want her to, but he also didn't want to stop her, because to do that would be to control her.

It's like this: I may love my girlfriend, but I want her love to be of her free choice. So if there was another man in her life, and I gave her an ultimatum, I wouldn't want her to go to him instead of me, but at the same time I would want her choice to be her own. In this context, I am giving her free will. In the context of our lives, God has given us free will.

Sorry to waffle on, but it's not about the tree at all; it's about the concept behind it!

As for the snake (Satan). Satan too has free will. Satan was once a glorious and beautiful angel (called Lucifer), and given great god-like powers. He rebelled against God because he wanted to take over, so God banished him from heaven. But, like any other of his creations, God didn't stop Satan from doing what he does, because he gave him free will. He doesn't want Satan to do what he does, and he could easily stop him, but God doesn't break hispromises, and he gave Satan free will, so he does not interfere with what Satan does.

Satan runs around acting like God, ruling over our planet, and God could stop him but he doesn't because if he took away the free will of one of his creations (Satan) it would be like taking away all our free will. This is because it would change the rules distinctly. We would be allowed to do anything we liked — unless we were really, really bad, then we get our free will revoked — which is not free will at all. God either lets all of us do "anything we like", or controls us all. There can be no inbetween. There can be no singling out.

Time is also irrelevant. God knows our future; our past; Satan's future' Satan's past. He know about the horrible things Satan will do, and we will do and he doesn't stop us all for the same reason: our free will.

It's hard to see the difference, but there is a crucial difference between humans parents and their children, and God and us (his children). We raise our young. That is our nature. We are supposed to be there for our kids when they are young, to guide them. God on the other hand is a totally different kind of parent, he can sit back and do absolutely nothing and we can still live our lives. He doesn't have to interfere. He gave us free will which means he cannot interfere.

God is more like the parent of a young man who lives alone. The parent of the young man has decided that no matter what trouble his son gets into, he's going to let him sort it out himself. But if ever his son calls him up and asks for help, then he is there, ready and happy to help.

You might argue that if the man's son was ever in any big trouble (like about to die) then the man would obviously interfere. But to God, there is no distinction between big trouble and little trouble, and death is not a bad thing. God just doesn't and can't interfere with anything, otherwise he would be breaking his promise to give us free will, and without that we could not be truly alive, and we could not truly love God.

Man's separation from God is something I don't totally understand yet. I don't think it is God's choice that man lives cut off from him, it's just the way things are. I don't fully understand it, but you're asking the wrong person. As I said, these details are trivialities and probably largely irrelevant to the main topic here, which is faith.

That's an easy one. It all goes back to free will again. God chose to giv us free will, so that we can do whatever we want. The 'condemnation' was brought about by us. That is, it was of our choice that things are this way. As I said before, if God denied us our free choice, based on what we choose, then he has not given us free choice at all.

Maybe an analogy will help? Er... Let's imagine you're a parent and you have a son and you love him dearly. I mean you really love him and you would do anything for him, and you want to give him a lot of freedom to live his life how he wants to live it.

Now let's say your son kept asking you for a sportscar, and he was aksing and asking and nagging and nagging for months. Because you really love him, you finally buy him the sportscar. You tell him that the car is his: which means he can do what he likes with it. Whatever that entails.

A few days later, you notice your son putting TNT around the brand new sportscar. You ask him what he's doing and he says he's going to blow it up so he can film it for a student film project he's making and it'll be cool. You think he's absolutely crazy. You strongly advise him not to blow up his sportscar, that it's a mistake, and he'll regret it all his life, but he doesn't listen.

At this point most parents would intervene and forbid their son from blowing up the sportscar, physically, if necessary. However, you truly want to give your son freedom, so you let him blow it up. What's more, before you even bought him the sportscar, you'd read his film script and you knew he wanted the sportscar so he could blow it up all along.

This is what God is like! Of course he knows everything. He knows the future because to him it's not the future since he exists outside of time (since he created the universe and is not part of his own creation).

I hope that answers your question.

Need? No. Want? Yes!

 

bump-a-dum dum!