Do you feel that Gods expectations are unrealistic?

Now I've answered what proof I would need to believe, I think it would be fair to ask you, what proof would make you doubt? There must be something because it can hardly be true belief it there are no possibilities for doubt.

 

Good question. I'm going to work, so I''ll think about it and answer you when I get home.

 

Well, if you are talking about whether God exists or not; No, nothing would make me doubt that. As I told the Dope, I have always known god exists. I have always been able to "see" God, so I not going to doubt what I can "see".

Now if you're asking me if I could doubt the way I worship, then perhaps. What would cause doubt in that area would be a better form of worship. But since I have already studied religion and that is why I worship the way I do, I doubt that even that is possible.

Is that what you were asking?

 

Ok.

But hypothetically: Let's say the world were different from what it is now. Because God created the heavens and the earth, this universe we are in could not be anything from what it is now. But if things were different and the heavens and the earth were not as they are now, you wouldn't think to yourself "well you know, God wouldn't have done it this way"? Or are you the kind of person that if we were living in a sulfurous steaming mud world and we were all insectoids communicating with beeps you would still think God gave that to us - that's what I get from "nothing would make me doubt that".

I'm just trying to figure out what it is about this world that made you always know of God's existence.

 

Be weary. Walsh has understanding of great concepts for our Conscience to attach to in containing of the world for believing of givenness and creation of it's momentary presence. Does olderwaterbrother have the Conscience to attach himself to such a world about?

 

Well, hypothetically, if God had created it, how would it being different throw doubt on God's existence? Wouldn't it still bear the marks of God's creation?

Like I said, I've always been able to "see" it. I'm not saying that in anyway it is proof that you should believe, just that it is proof I can believe.

For me it's a little like trying to convince a blind man that colors exist and having that blind man trying to convince me that colors don't exist. It could be that colors are just a hallucination but they don't seem that way to me and I kind of enjoy seeing in color.

 

Then what is it about the universe that makes you "see" it? There must be something. To take the colors example, I would say to the blind man that objects have a certain visual quality due to my eyes receiving different wavelengths of light that makes objects of different colors appear different to me. Similarly, the way God appears to you must have a certain quality, which upon reflection you would be able to contrast against what it would feel like if he did not exist. If there is no difference between the feeling of him existing and him not existing then I can't see how you can say you feel him. In the same way I can say the computer in front of me exists because if it did not exist I would not see it with my eyes and feel it with my hands, and there would be a space there where it would have been had it not existed.

 

I did say that I would try to prove to you that God exists but when you asked what would cause me to doubt God's existence, I had to say nothing would because I "see" God. I don't expect you to accept that as proof for you but it is the reason I am not able to doubt the existence of God.

As for proving to you that God exists, I was thinking pretty much along the lines of the example that you laid out about explaining color to a blind man.

One problem is the one you mentioned about if the computer in front of you didn't exist. The problem being that a computer can not exist but God is not able to not exist, everything else can not exist but not God.

 

I didn't ask for proof because we agreed it wasn't possible. I only asked for understanding, but I'm not sure I am any more enlightened than I was before.

 

OWB:

How can anything not exist?! Everything exists. We don't have to give everything our time, so that we may come to want to.

 

No we didn't agree that it wasn't possible, only that if the only proof you will except is to have God appear to you then this conversation is pointless. That is why I asked you what other types of proof would you accept.

As for being more enlightened, I have not yet tried to prove anything to you.

I was asked by you, if I could doubt the existence of God and I told you; no and told you why.

We have been talking about that and as I've said I don't believe that discussion is one that will show you that God exists.

Also I did say this; "One problem is the one you mentioned about if the computer in front of you didn't exist. The problem being that a computer can not exist but God is not able to not exist, everything else can not exist but not God".

To imagine that God does not exist would to be to believe that out of nothing, no energy and no matter, a "Big Bang" occurred and resulted in everything we see around us and that would include all the laws that govern the universe.

That seems a giant leap of blind faith to me.

To me it would more reasonable to believe the universe was guided to where it is now than to believe that an explosion in a printing factory produced the works of Shakespeare.

 

Faith is a personal matter, which is why I think arguing it out doesn't help anyone. No one would argue the evidence leaves no room for God (except Stephen Hawking) and yet there is no proof available. It's pointless. Which is why personally, for the last few years I've been trying to gather other peoples' subjective experiences to see what they think. I think it would help me show he exists because I could compare my own experiences against what you "see" - if they are there then I can study them more and perhaps shed more light upon God, if not then I can carry on as before. But only if you told me what it is you "see", which you haven't done and it appears you won't, unfortunately.

 

To be fair, Stephen Hawking isn't the only scientist and is far from being the greatest scientific mind that we have today; He's mostly a popularizer of science. Michio Kaku for example, the co-founder of string field theory, is an agnostic and has himself said he leaves room for the existence of God.

 

They do not posit that the big bang emerged from nothing, no energy. They postulate that the big bang emerged from a point of intense singularity. Although what that point of singularity might have looked like, there are no models for.

 

Hawking believes that literally nothing created itself.

 

Some people can entertain the thought that the universe creates itself, from itself, and therefore desire to create themselves along with it, on a feeling. Take a guess as to what that feeling is!

 

Does hawking have a model for what he believes and does he call part of it, the big bang?

 

Replace the words "Big Bang" with "God" and you have your beliefs right there. I can't see the difference, honestly.

 

Whatever you are Doing it exists at dualism to perceive in this way. Do you actually perceive the God of History in fundamentally your Time when He happened to another form of personal bearing for the Justice at Nature. Then there is the personal Experience you had in your own life; if we can't be sure that the God of History is the same as the imposed God in one's own Life then the unified essential divinity is of a dreamy nature, and for what dreams tell us, we DOubt you will attain the stuff of Legends.

 

And where did it come from?