Do You Believe In Free Will?

Discussion in 'Agnosticism and Atheism' started by TheSamantha, Jan 17, 2016.

  1. SpacemanSpiff

    SpacemanSpiff Visitor

    ^ one account per thread please

    using multiple accounts in same thread is not allowed
     
  2. Mr.Writer

    Mr.Writer Senior Member

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    I'm really not interested in discussing Bell's Theorem in this thread, if you like you can start a new thread where we can analyze that particular QM theory. I'm not talking about QM, I haven't mentioned it, it's not part of my thesis here, so you're talking past me.

    "There is a way to escape the inference of superluminal speeds and spooky action at a distance. But it involves absolute determinism in the universe, the complete absence of free will. Suppose the world is super-deterministic, with not just inanimate nature running on behind-the-scenes clockwork, but with our behavior, including our belief that we are free to choose to do one experiment rather than another, absolutely predetermined, including the ‘decision’ by the experimenter to carry out one set of measurements rather than another, the difficulty disappears. There is no need for a faster-than-light signal to tell particleA what measurement has been carried out on particle B, because the universe, including particle A, already ‘knows’ what that measurement, and its outcome, will be.[5]"

    - John Stuart Bell


    Besides it looks as though you yourself need to learn a lot more about this theorem.



    But then you do discuss magick a few sentences below, so why don't you just cut to the chase and start posting amateur weblinks about how newton was an alchemist and therefore astrology is real. We've danced this dance so many times, why don't you just skip right to the part where you lay bare your ignorance and gullibility.


    You don't understand them:

    Bob thinks that Bob has free will.

    Bob is hooked to an fMRI and told that he can decide to move his arm at anytime (exercise his free will).

    Bob moves his arm and then tells the researcher "Ok, I've exercised my free will".

    Researcher shows bob that 5 seconds before Bob thought he made the decision to move his arm, his brain had already engaged the circuits necessary to begin arm moving, thinking about moving, vocalizing intent, etc.

    In what sense does bob have free will? He clearly is riding shotgun in the car, at best. His brain made the call completely under his radar, without his knowledge.




    Please understand what you're talking about before talking about it. The scans don't show that the brain was faster than the body, whatever that means. they show that the brain has formed a course of action several seconds before the consciousness subjectively "decides" to do something.


    This means you haven't done your homework on the very thing you're bringing to the table, because it actually is easily proof for exactly the determinism I'm talking about. Bell's Theorem rules out Local Hidden Variables, yes; but it famously does not rule out Non-Local Hidden Variables. Oh wow, there's that word, Non Local, it must be true, because its spooky!

    Non-Local Hidden Variables, ie. things we don't yet understand in physics, most assuredly exist, unless you are making the argument that QM is finished, something which 0% of physicists would agree with.


    If you flip a coin, it has a 50% chance of being heads or tails. The outcome is not spontaneous; I have just described its occurence over time for you. There are no spontaneous phenomena in nature, even things like virtual particles popping in and out of existence are expressions of deep underlying symmetries of energy and balance.


    Sure, like the Tao we speak of is not the Tao. That's great, but we're not on that level; we're on the level of laser micrometers and you being able to understand a logical argument and doing your homework when it comes to how statistics works, probability, QM, Bell's Theorem, and the fundamentals of Determinism.

    I can describe determinism with a zen like saying;

    When the wind blows
    the grass moves
    my mind moves

    Wow, look at me, I'm doing Magick. Hail Hydra.
     
  3. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    Don't worry Mr.Writer, I won't bring QM into this discussion. But just for clarification---Superdeterminism is the only alternative possible if Bell's assumptions were incorrect----namely that the two measurements are completely independent and not determined by the universe. That is because, by definition, if the measurements were connected via the universe, then the universe is obviously deterministic. This would invalidate his experiments.

    I could go on with my own philosophy and talk about a nonphysical timeless 4th dimension and a holographic universe-----but I won't muddy up the waters.

    I am anxious to see your response, and will quietly wait-------these are the kind of debates that can get the brain juices really flowing-----pun intended to the argument at hand.
     
  4. Dejavu~

    Dejavu~ Members

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    That the universe has no antecedent means determinism is as much a human construct as any respective freedom of will we may entertain...

    I can't deceive myself with the misconception that consciousness is fundament ---- I am far too in love with its dynamism! :-D
     
  5. Crystal_Nocked

    Crystal_Nocked Members

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    So...here's the deal, Camille...as far as I see it wit' da whole Free Will thing.

    Insofar as there being an omniscient and all-powerful god who directs our lives, this of course is a silly and outdated belief. There almost certainly is not any sort of entity like that. So in this respect, YES..we have Free Will.

    I also do not believe in "destiny" or "fate." Because such a notion would pretty much necessitate the aforementioned personal, caring god. Or Universal Director, which again, I do not think exists.

    So...I think we ARE left to our own devices as far as our actions and thoughts. Our will. Our choices.

    There IS a caveat here, however.

    Neurologists and Psychiatrists--the vast majority of them, anyway--agree that the human mind works via chemical messengers and neural pathways. Chemicals called neurotransmitters are in our brains, and the various myriad inter-actions and combinations, and levels of them will dictate how we think and how we feel. After all, this is ALL that psychotropic medications do! Then simply alter the various levels of these brain chemicals.

    The thoughts we do, our actions, begin with neurons in the brain firing and tracing along paths. Neural pathways. And the more we do a certain thing, or even think the same thought, that same pathway is "etched" in the brain's circuitry. I had a psychiatrist once paint this in excellent layman's terms. He said to imagine how you wear a path in that field of tall dry grass as you walk it everyday on your way to work. This is exactly how those neural pathways are etched. The more they are used, the deeper they go, and thus, the harder it is to break free of them. Bad habits and addictions and maladaptive coping skills are caused by this.

    In fact, the term "muscle memory" is a huge misnomer, of course. What that term really refers to is, again, just the brain reverting to using those neural paths once again. So these paths are of course not always a bad thing. In fact they're usually very helpful. And a crucial step in the evolution of our brains.

    But as far as the negative side, yes, they can rob us of our truly having "free will." When we in fact think we are doing something spontaneous, we are in fact just getting "trapped" into actions that result from those same pathways being used. This is why you sometimes find yourself slapping your forehead in frustration and dismay, asking yourself, "Why the fuck do I keep doing this!"

    So, in that way, in a very biological and materialistic dynamic, without any need for make=believe gods or "life-controlling entities"--No, we do not always have the Free Will we think we might.

    Hope this helps. (yeah, I admit, I am a psychology nerd! LOL)

    Cheers.
     
  6. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    If our thoughts are the result of neurons tracing along neural pathways and as you say this "can rob us of our truly having free will", this begs the question as to what point do our thoughts ever exhibit free will?


    I mean we probably have an unfathomable amount of neurons traversing neural pathways before we've even uttered our first word.
     
  7. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    yes, so the very biggest and very smallest lends itself to the metaphysics which I meant...plenty of flexibility.....
    I never hated numbers before I joined any internet forums....Now...I hate the number 7, for instance...thanks to hip forums.

    Some people use numbers to hurt others.
     
  8. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Do you actually hate numbers? Or is it associations with the numbers?
     
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  9. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    You are right. I was going to change that yesterday, but forgot...yes, some associations ruin numbers for me....:(
    I do not like that it does that.
     
  10. You are much too confident in your own beliefs. It's kind of ridiculous actually. Don't know how to go about explaining to you that there could exist a mind of such complexity that we cannot even conceive of it. Not saying it for sure exists, but it's certainly not a case of "of course it doesn't, that's just silly, stupid simpletons."



    Free will...I don't know...free from what? There are always constraints. If I could do what I wanted I'd fly through the clouds today.

    Boiling a human entity down to dead lifeless chemicals interacting in our heads, though...that doesn't explain anything. There is this whole surface world that exists and has context completely independent of that. What is the context of a human entity in time and space? None of us understand that context. We can't understand that context because we lack the ability to perceive exactly where we are, exactly what this universe is like as a whole. Hell, with our weak senses, we can't even perceive what our piddly little world is really like. So what a personality means in this world is really up in the air. You can't just say "Oh that's chemicals in the brain" though, because it's obvious that you don't understand what the context of said chemicals is in the physical world. I think you're looking at things too plainly. Maybe that's comforting to you to think what you see is what you get, but it most certainly isn't the truth.
     
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  11. thefutureawaits

    thefutureawaits Members

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    Free Will is a gift from God but with free will has limits that only God can set, because he is the creator of the human.
     
  12. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    i believe there is never either 100% nor 0%.
    rather we are constantly influencing and being influenced
    and the percentage of how much is which is constantly and randomly varying.

    so yes, it is a thing that exists.
    we live in a statistical universe,
    not one that is predetermined on an individual scale.

    a statistical structure can follow a pre determined course,
    without that of any single one of its components doing so.

    which is not to say these larger structures follow predetermined course either.

    while science is every bit the alpha and omega of knowledge,
    it is knowledge that is not the alpha and omega of existence.

    the universal wonder of strangeness is its own proof of this.
    and not a thing dependent on any one belief,
    nor even any belief at all.
     
  13. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I don't know that this argument has much merit, although I wouldn't call anyone a simpleton based on their philosophic or religious beliefs.

    For instance:
    There could exist an alien race with a civilization so advanced we are merely automatons built by them, even though we couldn't conceive of their existence.
    There could exist innumerable gods so advanced we couldn't conceive of their existence.
    There could exist an explanation for our existence so advanced we couldn't conceive of what it is.
    There could exist an explanation for our existence so basic we couldn't conceive of what it is.
    etc.
     
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  14. Well I wasn't trying to make an argument for the existence of God. I was simply saying it's a possibility. Yes there could exist all of these things so saying "of course they don't exist" is just arrogance. What it really is is a claim to sanity, which I find irritating because it's just common sense that none of us knows what's going on here. I don't want to start a fight with Crystal, but I don't like that. People are very impressionable and deserve to be told the truth. So let's be honest, these are opinions not facts.
     
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  15. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    if free will did not exist, punishment and reward would be meaningless torture and of no moral value.

    i believe no good thing comes from hating logic, and no good thing wishes to be feared.

    no act of faith is required to observe both of these, nor to observe the existence of the universal wonder of strangeness.

    it is only the causes of these, we have made up ourselves to imagine as humans,

    as a form of denial that things can exist without our knowing even that they do.
     
  16. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    In an absolute sense, that'd be correct but punishment and reward would still serve utilitarian functions in society.
     
  17. ThriceHistMorphs

    ThriceHistMorphs Members

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    Free Will is self-evident. The only thing stopping Free Will would be something like a physical ailment that stops you from being able to do certain things, or a Government that has laws that don't allow me to do certain things, and even then, I can still choose to break those laws if I want. Sure, I can't fly either, but Man had the Free Will to harness Aerodynamics. All this talk of everything is Cause and Effect is just a philosophical self-masturbation. It changes nothing about me choosing to tie my shoe.
     
  18. Deidre

    Deidre Visitor

    Even if every action is pre-determined already, that would mean that all of our choices are pre-determined but all of our choices would still feel like we have free will. Even if free will is little more than an illusion, it still feels like the quality of my life is mostly made up from my choices and attitudes.
     
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  19. ThriceHistMorphs

    ThriceHistMorphs Members

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    And it literally doesn't even remove Free Will. What if there are Parallel Realities, which were all pre-determined from the Big Bang? The whole pre-determined argument is useless.
     
  20. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

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    I believe in free will. But I also believe it scares a lot of people.

    I think we all have the capability to exercise free will, but few of us choose it. Generations of social conditioning has programmed us to accept what is "right" what is "expected" what is "acceptable." To stray from that challenges our identity of self, as well as our cultures, attitudes and beliefs. The unknown is the unknown and it is terrifying. Most of us are content to live within the narrow margins that we can understand.
     

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