Do any of you actually live in Amsterdam?

I am a little confused as to what you expect me to say in response to this? Am I supposed to deny your allegation? Or am I supposed to offer up more on the topic of the widely held reputation that the Dutch have for their notoriiously long holidays and short working hours?

This is not even necesarily a bad thing overall. It's true that the Dutch work very little compared to most other western countries (many would think this a benefit). Employee rights are also very good in Holland, which means that it is harder to lose you job over there than it is elsewhere (again, this could be seen as a benefit)

So it makes perfect sense that given the very favourable working conditions in the netherlands, dutch expats often find the pace set by international companies very difficult to live up to. Likewise, employers are aware that someone used to working in holland , under dutch conditions, will have a major adjustment to make if they are to start working to US standards for example.

Even dutch people who have spent and significant time outside holland will complain about the lack of customer servive in the netherlands. For someone coming from Us or Australia for example, the service offered in Holland is quite shocking until you are used to it. None of this is surprising, as there is no incentive for good service in holland and very few employees are worried about losing their jobs. Incompetence is almost rewarded in many ducth companies.

While you will no doubt take this as further critisism, it could just as easily be taken as a favourable commentary on workers rights!

 

oh come on.. you're trying to rationalise your insult now..
It's not what you say, it's the way you say it.. You always got these little insults in your posts.. It's degrading and it makes us dislike you..

 

Oh please.. you are realy doing your best to rationalize this, like consolidated says, but besides that you're making statements that seem kinda far fetched.

Let me get you some information:

Working in the Netherlands:
"According to Dutch law you are allowed to work a maximum of 9 hours a day and 45 hours a week. However, a person is only allowed to work 520 hours a year, thus the average working week is 40 hours."

"You are entitled to a minimum of 20 days a year for holidays. Employers often allow five extra days. Employees receive normal pay during their holidays. Unfortunately there are few national holidays in Holland, so you do not get many extra days." (This in fact leads to people calling in sick so they make some use of their sick days, even when they are healthy. Notorious for our long holidays eh?)

Working in France:
"The legal working hours (Temps de travail) in France is fixed at 35 hours per week... (...).. 35 hours are not a compulsory maximum for a week's work, but a reference point for the calculation of overtime as all supplementary hours working must be remunerated. Using the legislation as a guide, companies are free to introduce their own practices for working hours or introduce part-time schedules."

"France is a great place to work when it comes to holidays and leave. All employees are entitled to two and a half days of paid leave per month worked. This gives basically 5 full weeks of vacation a year"

Working in Spain:
"Traditional working hours in Spain are Monday to Friday from 9:00-9:30 until 13:30-14:00. After a few hours for lunch and a siesta, people return to work from 16:30-17:00 until 19:30-20:00. Today, there is a trend towards shortening the lunch break and finishing earlier. Working hours vary massively between organisations. During the summer months, many organizations adopt an abridged work schedule called horario intensivo whereby employees work non-stop from 8:00-9:00 until 15:00."

" When it comes to holidays and vacations time, Spain is a wonderful place to work. By law, any employee under contract is entitled to a full month of vacation each year (usually taken in August) along with numerous national and regional holidays."

(Source: http://www.justlanded.com/english/)

I could go on about this.. but I think I just made my point. I really don't see why you think this country has the reputation you claim it has. We don't have siesta, we don't have a lot of national holidays, our average days of vacation are lower than in other countries.. our working days aren't shorter than anywhere else and when it comes to the quality of service.. well.. you obviously never been to a typical shop it Greece or France with the arrogant attitude you'll encounter there sometimes.

 

Hell, the fact that he's comparing it to the US standard kinda bothers me as I think the US is one of the most overworked countries in the industrialized world. Seems that too many people around here live to work, instead of working to live. That's a lifestyle that I think needs to change here in the USA. You say the Dutch don't work as long as Americans? KUDOS TO THE DUTCH!!! Makes me want to move there all the more.

 

Whether you believe the repuation to be fair or not is beside the point. I can tell you from living in UK, USA, Germany, Honk Kong & The Netherlands, & Australia, that getting things done in Holland takes twice as long as it does in any of these countries. The dutch also have an obsession with paperwork. I thought to germans were bad when it came to rules and regulations, but the dutch take the cake.

I lost count how many times Dutch companies like KPN, AGIS overcharged me for services and took the money directly out of my bank accounts. In the end I had to cancel direct debit authority from all the Dutch companies I was dealing with. Not only would they often take money that wasn't authorized, but when I brought it to their attention, it took several months, phonecalls and letters to get the money back (if I got it back at all). I all countries in which i've worked, the government departments typically offer the worst service. In holland every company operates like a government department and the actual government departments don't offer service at all! Ever tried applying for a residence permit or had any dealings with the IND? (or helping others to do so?).

I have never experienced this in other countires and it happened in holland so often that it can't be put down to coincidence. Ever noticed how many out of date products you find on the shelves at albert heijn? or how many rotten vegatables they sell? (probably not, because you are used to it).
My local albert heijn on Wetserstraat would run out of coke for 2 weeks!
One time they even left a cracked egg on the floor for two days. When I told the manager about it, he told me that it wasn't his job to clean up spills! I found that attitude to be quite common over there. Everyone would shift responsibilty and blame it one someone else.

Having experience with International companies in all the above countries, I can tell you that in International circles, the Dutch do have a reputation for being lazy. Thats not to say that all Dutch employees are lazy, but nonetheless, the reputation is there. Come back and tell me this isn't true when you have some experience working as a dutch expat. While it might be true that the actaul working hours in holland is comparable, the amount of work that gets done in those hours is far less. Look at how long road works take to get done in holland or try getting something important done on a thursday (when many have already started to wind down) or on a monday (when they are still sleeping in, or not even open).

I am not saying that the working standards in US or UK are something to be aspired to. However, it is true that life as a consumer in those countries is better than it is in holland. Like I said earlier, workers have more rights on holland, which is great for the workers! It just gets frustrating when it takes so long to get very basic things done.

 

Read my post next time. I clearly stated that the workers in holland have it good. Don't think about moving though. If you're skilled enough to get a job in holland as an expat, you will be expected to work hard for your money. The dutch are not stupid, they understand that US workers are used to working harder and they will pile their work on you. In many professional Dutch companies, there is also a school yard bully mentatlity which likes to blame everything on the dreaded foreigner!

 

Jason! God you really annoy the hell out of me.. I open a thread of you and again you don't do anything but radiate negativity! This is far beyond being critical, you totally miss the balance and you are trying to cover up the small insults you make with enourmous rationalisation posts. Why didn't you reply to the pizza thread by the way? Tough huh, not just me telling you they disagree with you, but even an immigrant!

 

Again with the personal insults (you really seem to have a penchant for base level responses). If you really believe what you have just written, then you wouldn't bother responding to me. I would suggest that for every time i've been guilty of being one sided (and there have been times), you have been guilty of the same offence (even more so than myself). What's more, Im prepared to come back with a cool head and think things out a little more.

This is a perfect example: Your friend demanded a response to my comment about Dutch employees. I would have been happy to leave it alone, but she came back asking for a response, so I gave one. Im asked for an explaination as to why i feel a certain way and then Im accused of trying to cover up insults with rationalizations. I can't win with you guys. You're all going to hate me until I bow down to the netherlands and say that it really is the pot smoking, free wheeling, multicultural paradise that you believe it to be. Well, that ain't going to happen.

It's also interesting that you never bother to refute my so called 'rationalizations'?.

Re: the pizza thread: hadn't seen it yet (I've got a life also). You'll be happy to know that there is now a response in that thread awaiting your attack.

 

You got it all wrong here, as usual.. I wasn't asking for an explanation to why the dutch are lazy workers.. What I wanted was an explanation why you have these little insults everytime you post.. It really is annoying when you read a post you somewhat agree with, but then you got slapped in your face with a degrading thing like you're a lazy worker.. You can't have a normal discussion when you do these things.. And yes, I respond likewise..
So you still haven't given me an anwser to why you everytime go out of your way to insult us..

 

Why do you take everything I say so personally? If someone says to me 'Australians are annoying' I don't get all offened by it. It's true, some Australians are annoying. Why take the insult as if it's directed towards you personally. If by relating my experience, I say something that you find is insulting to you as a dutch person, then I'm sorry about that, but it doesn't mean that I shouldn't voice my opinion.

If my experience (and that of many people i know) is that my dutch co workers have been less inclined towards putting in long hours, than people from other cultures, then that is my experience. That doesn't mean that I dislike those people or that all dutch people are lazy. All people and cultures have good and bad characterisitcs. For example, those same dutch people were really good natured people and I'd choose to hang out with them outside of work over some of the harder working employees at times.

Besides, if I really hated dutch people (like you seem to think I do, by virtue of the fact that I critisize many cultural traits), then I would join this group: http://www.admovement.tk/

 

By you generalising all dutch people, doesn't that make you ass bad as 'the intollerant dutch'

 

Well like I said, I'm not perfect. I'm not going to deny that I have made some generalizations, but when I do so, I also try to make it clear that it doesn't apply to all Dutch people. Notice that I say 'many dutch' or 'some dutch' or some other coment designed to make it clear that I am speaking from my own experience and that of my friends and co workers. That said, Im sure there are times when i've responded hastily and have neglected to qualify my statement and for that I do apologise.

 

well.. I'm not perfect either, so I might take things personal when you talk about the dutch.. But I'm not perfect either, maybe that's because I am dutch.. Loved that site you linked btw.. It's sooo funny

 

Apologies accepted.. and yeah.. I'm not perfect either. Human being and all... so.. let's just forget about it and 'zand erover' like they say it here?

And yeah.. that link was very funny.. hehe..

 

Okay, let's declare a cease fire

Despite all the arguing, I actually quite like you guys anyway. Besides, we might run into each other one of these days, for I will undoubtably be back in Amsterdam at some stage

PS. I'm glad you liked the site, a Dutch friend actually directed me to it (and that you read the disclaimer).

 

I thought you guys might get a laugh out of this site also:

http://www.itsnotpossible.nl/

 

i thought this was funnier


http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=1&story_id=5103

 

yeah, i saw that some time ago. it raises some good issues, what's your point?

 

just out of interest mafuman, why is it that you hang around here and on the expatica forums? have you ever lived in holland or are you just another american tourist who visted amsterdam, got really stoned and went home telling themselves that they're going to move to the netherlands?

 

hehehehe