Distinguishing the truth, is it ever possible?

Hey. I've done LSD two times, a long with a number of other psychedelic experiences. And after doing a lot of research in how fellow LSD-takers think, and how LSD changed their lives, their gobbuldy-goop suddenly doesn't sound so ridiculous.

The theories of everybody all being one consciousness subjectively experiencing itself, the theories of all matter just been condensed vibrations, energy that you can truly feel under certain circumstances, flowing through yourself, everybody else, and everything else.

My question however, is that is it possible for us ever to know if this is the truth, as to experience and understand this, most people need to experience a deep psychedelic trip of LSD or similar chemicals, no? So how do we know it's not just the drug giving us these thoughts, or whether the drug is just a crucial ingredient to the bigger understanding?

Thank you for your thoughts and contribution in advance.

 

Deep meditation has given people the same sort of spiritual epiphanys.

 

It sounds like you are asking some philosophical questions. This is a lot of fun (and pain). Before you continue down this road, I will just point out that philosophy has been unable to disprove that you are all figments of my imagination and that I am the only living and thinking entity in the universe; in fact, I am the universe, you are all just parts of my dream. You cannot disprove this. What does this tell you about philosophy and language? To me it means, don't take it too seriously. If you feel something to be true, and it fits with your empirical observations of the world, and it causes harm to none, and it makes you happy and improves your life, feel free to think or believe it.

You cannot ever prove something like "we are all one being". At least I think. Someone 100 years ago would have said the same thing about matter being energy condensed, and then Einstein came along and showed it's the case indeed, confirmed by quantum mechanics and countless experiments. What we know and how we know it has changed and continues to change dramatically over time.

 

That is what I've realized and psychedelics helped me with it. But yes, who ever said that meditation can achieve the same thing...yes, it can. The thing is, psychedelics are a short cut to getting there. If you go the meditation only route it would require a lot of training and practice to get to the same place that psychedelics can get you to rather easily.

 

I have been reading Allan Watts.. "The taboo against knowing who you are"
(Didn't finish it yet)
Google it. He has some interesting thoughts about this subject!!

my question is: Would you realize all this if you never heard about it if before your trip?
All your thoughts are implanted. Are you sure the realization is truly yours?

 

Thanks for everybody's thoughts and contributions so far. I think I may have to attempt deep meditation, as experiencing the same thoughts while not under the influence would make things more certain to me I believe.

Sadly, I think I must agree that it can never be 100% proved, for once in my life, its a shame I have such an empirical mind, searching for the definite truth and no other.

Gendorf, this also came into my mind. Did I just remember what others had said about psychedelics, and that influenced by trip, or did I truly experience this epiphany. Maybe life is just full of questions that can't be answered... who knows.

Oh the frustration.

 

One of the greatest scientific and mathematical discoveries of recent history was when Kurt Goedel proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there are true statements about nature that can never be proven. And what's weirder, if you were to devise a way to be able to prove all true natural statements, this would prove that the system you are working with is inconsistent. He actually did this with math, very smart guy.

So yes, there are absolutely things that are out there that we just can't know, and have to shrug at. Definitely important to remain very skeptical though, as there's a lot of poor quality knowledge out there.

 

Meditation and psychedelic use are both paths to the same place IMO.
Have you heard of Terence Mckenna OP?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spdxWhKxpF8"]terence mckenna - meditation vs hallucinogens - YouTube

 

"I think psychedelics play a major part in what we do, but having said that, I feel that if somebody's going to experiment with those things they really need to educate themselves about them. People just taking the chemicals and diving in without having any kind of preparation about what they're about to experience tend to have no frame of reference, so they're missing everything flying by and all these new perspectives. It's just a waste. They reach a little bit of spiritual enlightenment, but they end up going, 'Well, now I need that drug to get back there again.' The trick is to use the drugs once to get there, and maybe spend the next ten years trying to get back there without the drug." - Maynard James Keenan

 

It's interesting you think that and then present that video because Mckenna is suggesting that they don't get a person to the same place. Meditation, drumming, sex and several other methods not mentioned in the video can allow one to reach a peak experience which is what they share in common with psychedelics, however all those other methods require focus, probably some amount of practice/traning to reach such an experience as where with psychedelics, one can spontaneously experience it, conceivably still explore all these activities mentioned, as well as a whole range of other human experiences.

I think this versatility of psychedelics is what makes them rather special and unique. However if the aspect(s) of psychedelics you most value can be achieved through meditation, then the latter is probably a better avenue in which to explore them, which I think is kind of along the lines of the Maynard quote which GM quoted.

 

Yeah he and I don't agree on everything. But most would be on the other side of the issue. Meditation would be the only true way to growth and psychedelics would have no place. He always liked to trip in meditation conditions. Dark room, no noise, just himself. So in the end maybe he was practicing it a little more then he thought.

To me it's always been like a shortcut, you see and think "yeah I know the road to come back here". But without understanding the roads a little sober you really will not remember how to get back there.

But I like that quote. Tool has always been one of the few metal bands I like.

 

I didn't understand a word in that video because the music I'm playing is too loud.......... but I think I heard him say that you cant get there in another video!!!
So I think he has no idea what he is talking about ......

 

I wanna do that!

I wanna hum like an tibetian monk and and howl at the full moon like a werewolf in the Forrest! Hitting the drums with full force! DUMDUMDUMDUM

FULL ON TRIBAL!!!

 

As far as mental apprehension goes we might suspect everything is an idea. From ideas arise premise and from premise our doing falls naturally. Some ideas are conceptual dead ends and some give us access to novel perspectives. Ideas that are self negating or inconsistent are not as wholesome on the face of it as ideas that see common purpose.

 

Start with lum, get to know it
then vam,
then ram,
then yam
then ham
am
om,

or

run till you are out of breath!

 

will do!

 

Meditation would have never awakened me from the mental stupor (stupid) with which I operated until ingesting L at 28. Oh, got along fine with work and most everyone cared for me---but---when I had a load of alcohol on, even friends would cross the street if I was coming. (Except other stupid ones). I don't formally meditate, but I do have a place in my minds eye ---hammock---lagoon--soft breeze--clear water--palm trees--little kids having fun nearby--that suits me fine. Nope--I required the doses to become humanlike. So, that's my truth and I found it.

 

I would like to add to this statement of guerillabedlam's,
,

The most common way that these states of consciousness are apprehended is under extreme duress or trauma and unfortunately so as people seem to need to reach a point of absolute desperation before they are motivated to fundamental consideration.
Some are more fortunate to recognize that removing your hand from a flame sooner than latter is wise, so they pop off with the saying in the kingdom of heaven the first become last and the last first.

Psychedelics seem to be a quick and easy door into altered states of awareness but just like a flash of illumination all that easily accessible vision needs to be worked out in temporal order.

If I have said something stupid or confusing here I would appreciate some direction toward remedy.

 

I'd like to say that I wasn't seeking a cure for what ailed me---someone just talked me into trying L and BANG---over 20 years without alcohol and the beginning of some self examination and spirituality. An accident, I suppose, albeit a good one.

 

not really

yes and such focus and attention has the effect of altering brain wave patterns and activity, psychedelics utilize a completely different method.

Personally I feel they can both produce similar experiences, but there are some fundamental differences due to the nature through which any subjective effects are achieved.
It's chemical for one, manipulation of electrical activity for the other.


The biggest difference is that with meditation you are training your brain/body to alter the electrical activity in the brain and that is something that can be learned and once mastered, readily duplicated or even maintained to a great degree.

With psychedelics you are simply at the mercy of how long it takes your liver to metabolize the substance and effects to wear off.


We have all seen/read stuff concerning what, why, & how mechanism of action for LSD and other psychedelics.
We also have done a good job of mapping brain activity and wave patterns when in a meditative state.
I would like to see some info about what the brain wave patterns look like when a person is under the influence of LSD or some other similar substance.
and then a meditation master who can seamlessly flow from one brain wave pattern to the next, how would they test under the influence while meditating?

Anybody know of any such research?