Diplomatic Relations with Russia, Ukraine, and the UN

Agree 100%. If this was many other countries - they'd be executed for treason.

 

If we, as Americans, just shrug this insurrection / attempted coup off ......... it'll happen again because there's no penalty for trying to overthrow a free & fairly elected government. Democracy will become a joke.

I've warned of this many times.

 

This is the first article that stood out among the multitude...

To me, it feels like Russian interests are not considered. When there is reporting, sometimes it's jingoistic, and the language fuels a divide in global unity.

If we want to befriend Russia, or even simply communicate, the best way in my opinion is to respect their needs.

Here is an excerpt:

 

The Ukraine has always been Russian as too is Byelorussia and all the other countries that split off when the Soviet Union collapsed. The Russians lost a large number of soviet citizens in defending and protecting the Ukrainian citizens and it is only right that the Russians want back that which they lost.

 

Da...

They bombed Georgia, nyet? In 2008. And there is more in Ukraine; some area where they are supporting Russian militia or something... Russian backed militia I think.

Still, I want justice for Russian interests. Not something idyllic for Vladimir Putin, but rather something that effects a sympathetic turn in politics and foreign journalism.

Anyone who doesn't live in a Western country knows, the West's media tends to under-represent the sovereign interest of anyone who is "adversarial" in effort to gear public opinion in support of the Western interest.

I am a Westerner. Make no mistake, I am devoted to U.S.A.

But it's time we learned how to put ourselves in other people's shoes. I think that's what this is about. And it's not anything that can't be settled through diplomatic discussion.

When we use ultimatums, when we say 'non-starter', & when we seek to disarm... That's when. The 2nd Amendment provides for everyone to defend themself. But when it comes to foreign policy where is that same ethos?

We need to open the discussion about going forward without ultimatums, non-starters, and disarmament.

 

Stalin.........protect?

I am eu(nl) and dont want to get caught up in this.....but i need gas,rofl

Mzzls

 

I was telling my fiance, Kazakhstan should simply offer a tank of gas as appeasement. Half of the protesters would have gone home, and fewer would be dead.

 

Funny thing is we have our(NL) own gas/ect...........and we still want to rely on Rus/Ukr gas.(weird economics)

I feel for UKR and Kaz but dont want a fight......(eu)sry.

Mzzls

 

remembering the Chernobyl nuclear disaster fostered upon Ukraine by the Soviets.

Wondering what the people of Ukraine want? What about self-determination ?

 

I think they wanted NATO membership. Not sure now.

They might be better off establishing diplomatic ties with Moscow through a global entity in their region.

 

Return of the Warsaw pact ???

 

Yes!
Sign me up...

 

I can't believe this thread is quiet right now.

Russian troops are on the Ukrainian border.

 

The Chief Executive Officer of the Irish South and West Fish Producers Organisation has said some of their members plan to peacefully disrupt Russia's plans to conduct a military exercise in waters off the Irish coast next month.

Patrick Murphy described the area as "very important" for fishermen and said they want to protect biodiversity and marine life.

Yesterday, Russia's Ambassador to Ireland said the controversy around the military exercise was "hugely overblown".

In a press conference in the Russian Embassy in Dublin, Yury Filatov said the exercise was "not in any way a threat to Ireland or anybody else" and he said no harm is intended by it.

 

I thought I would look at this mainly from the Russian point of view and why I think Russia will invade despite diplomatic efforts to diffuse .

I am looking this from an historical point of view as being a wargamer with models not computers with my area of interest being the Cold War,

The Background

The Soviet Union collapsed in 26th December 1991. The Rot from the Soviets Unions point of view started around 9th November 1989 when the Berlin wall came down and the subsequent unification of Germany .
One by one many of the former countries that formed the Warsaw Pact which was the equivalent of NATO in Soviet terms became independent and then to add insult to injury joined NATO the very organisation the Soviet Union despised and so does the Putin led Russia of today .
The diagram below shows the state of the situation today . It shows Russia being quite isolated with NATO on its doorstep




The old Soviet war doctrine was to mess somebody elses house rather than their own . This as you can see is virtually impossible now as all the former Warsaw Pact countries have joined NATO .

Vladimir Putin was inaugurated 7th May 2012 by the Kremlin and many thought this guy could be a threat to world peace. This was with good justification as he had very Stalinist views being a former Colonel in the KGB . His mandate was to make Russia a great Imperial power again . In the biggest Land Grab since the Second World War he annexed the Crimea in 2014 taking it off Ukraine .

In 2014 Pro Russian forces invaded the Eastern Side of the Ukraine known as the .Donbas Region with many of the citizens loyal to the Russian cause and spoke Russian . The Pro Russian forces are mercenary like militias or private armies fighting for the Russian cause . They are funded by Russia ,trained by Russia and supplied by Russia ,although they deny this . These are not like the Arab militias just being band of en with AK47s . No these are proper equipped armies with Soviet built T72 tanks and BM21 rocket launchers and the soldiers weapons of choice is the Russian made AK74 assault rifles . They pushed the Ukrainian forces back . Roughly the Pro Russian forces occupy 2 thirds of this Region whilst Ukraine has held onto a third . A cease fire was called for in 2016 . This has been shaky as many thousands on both sides have been killed in further skirmishes .The front line of the Ukrainian forces resembles First World War Trench systems and these have been held so far to date .

Putin wants to absorb the Ukraine into his new " Empire" as he sees the country as being part of Russia . In the cold war era missiles pointing westwards were based in the Ukraine . The Tank factory that produced the Soviet T64 and T 80 tanks was also based in the Ukraine . These still produce modified T80 tanks today but not for Russia but for the Ukraine and export . The bulk of the Ukrainian tanks that serve the country are modified former Soviet designs of T64 and T80 tanks and may well be opposing the more modern Russian T90 tanks . Ukraine apart from a short spell after the First World war has always been part of the Soviet Union and only became independent in 1991.

The Present

We have a situation where we have around 100 000 troops with a 1000 tanks waiting on the Ukrainian Border , on the pretense of a military exercise . Having read many Cold War books if it ever turned hot it was always on the back of a military exercise . That gives a mandate for the movement of a large body of troops in peace time . Coincidently we also have military exercises going on in the puppet state of Belarus which shares another border with the Ukraine . This has given Russia a mandate for moving more troops and these are now in a state of readiness .

America has issued a warning tonight for all American citizens apart from some Embassy staff to evacuate the Ukraine as the couldn't "guarantee their safety " . You dont issue a statement like that if you think diplomacy is going to work .

America has also stated tonight that its upto the Ukraine as to what it wants to do with its forces and they have been working for sometime now to bring their armed forces upto NATO standards . NATO has always had an open door policy with membership admission as long as certain standards are met . This would be Putin's worse nightmare . This I reckon will be the straw that broke the camels back .

War I think will commence around March if it starts at all . The ground will be much firmer then to aid swift troop movements .

 

I haven't finished reading your post yet, but I like reading it and you sound informed - which is miles apart from the status quo on the net... Usually there is so much anti-Russian sentiment that it's hard to take anything very seriously. They are a people. And they are a white people, aren't they? Yes, they are. A proud and beautiful people, deserving of respect, and consideration.

What I want to say is that I think that the Russians have been media-bullied long enough. I'll just leave it at that. NATO is frequently the springboard from which the next volley will come...

 

Your right mate about the Medias perception of Russia . Russia has as a natural fear of the West . Unlike some numpties in this country who are trying to erase our history because it doesnt fit within the modern ways of thinking,Russians never forget or try to hide their history whether it be Good the Bad and the Ugly . The fact is Russia has been invaded by armies from the West before . Napoleons Grande Armee of 1812 which was a truly European army with French,Germans,Poles ,Austrians ,dutch etc to name but a few . Then in 1941 by Hitlers German armies . Both repelled luckily in part by the harsh Russian Winters .

So back to today, to have Ukraine another former Soviet country to align with NATO is unacceptable to the Russians as they would have NATO on its doorstep covering all of its western borders with the exception of Belarus . Diplomacy can still win the day if some sort of compromise on this issue can be reached.

The ball really is in the West's court .

 

Anyone supporting Russia IS NOT looking at their history. Aggression is their mainstay. PERIOD. They kill their own people who have the audacity to disagree with "the party."
For real Russian history - look up Stalin, gulags, etc. Note also the people who spoke against Putin - poisoned & killed outside Russia by Putin.

Just WHO do you think you're bullshitting?????? The whole world knows Russia's history and their M.O.

 

Your mistaken .I'm not supporting Russia . Just looking at it from a different angle than with western tinted spectacles . When we play cold war wargames I play the British or the West Germans . Yes I know my history .

I have studied this conflict since 2014 and not a johnny come lately .

"Just WHO do you think you're bullshitting?????? The whole world knows Russia's history and their M.O."
And please remember the atrocities Germany committed against Russian citizens during WW2.Im not even going to mention the goings on at guantanamo bay in recent times . There are always 2 sides of the coin .

Thats just your view and your entitled to your opinion as others are with theirs.

And please kindly stop shouting. Just no need .

 

This was an eye opener for me. Look at their border*

Now, if you're in the United States, think about our border and its repute...

The sovereignty of the United States is not threatened by its neighbors in Canada or Mexico, no. But it's a contentious issue, perhaps mostly on the southern border and because of language barriers and a distinct difference in physical appearance; namely in skin color between the ethnic majority on either side of that same border... (well... actually the U.S. has people of all colors, but the point is that Mexico is typically not caucasian, and America typically is thought of as being majority caucasian; though that is changing).

The point I'm trying to make though is lost if we focus too much on a vague comparison to the United States/Mexico border...

Look at Russia on that map.

A blind person can see that literally ALL of NATO is lining up along their western flank, and the Western media hurling insulting rhetoric with every broadcast all the while.

------

I told my father (who remembers the cold) there is a (deliberate?) lack of objectivity when it comes to discussing Russia in media & politics.

We have to try to understand them. Maybe this map can help.

They are faced with some challenges, and yes, historically diplomacy has been lacking from their list of accomplishments...

I'm hopeful for a systematic unity between Russia and Ukraine - like a divorce with child support, alimony, and arbitration by the lawyers for both parties. We can get through it, but both parties must come to the table.

They need sovereignty, and they both need to have realistic expectations.