Did Schrödinger's Cat Simply Drop The Ball?

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by guerillabedlam, Nov 21, 2014.

  1. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    [​IMG]
     
  2. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    right on! :)
     
  3. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    It doesn't necessarily seem like a paradox as we know that beaming a light (which contains its own particles) on other particles effects it's behavior. so setting up an observer with it's own particles, which might disrupt the wave nature of the particle and collapse the wave function, doesn't seem like a paradox necessarily, but I do see how you might need to bring in something like quantum gravity or perhaps dark energy into the mix if you're not going to accept that the particle knows it's being observed.
     
  4. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Sorry I didn't get too far. Those two ifs are entirely different things. Reality doesn't require observation. To observe requires an observer. The observer is supplied as a property of that relationship, in other words an essential element not apart from all the other essential elements that you are observing. You aren't creating what you see as something separate from yourself. The universe, being made of information, is itself every bit informed. We are informed relatively because of our purpose being homo sapiens sapiens tasting and knowing man. Both our purpose and our sameness and differences are reflected in that description. Of course every one flinches at the mention of purpose but it is because again there has been a confusion between form and content. Purpose is polarity, sameness and difference are absorption and refection. Our knowing is inherent in matter.

    Knowing and tasting are the communal elements of knowledge and knowledge is being shared. Being informed relatively means we always stand in relationship and that relationship is to that every bit informed universe so there is a guide or a model there for everything. We always choose with a guide as we are guided in creation. There is not a philosophical dilemma or apparent schism between quantum and newtonian physics requiring a unified explanation. The mistake is having confused the elements in question at the beginning as being one in the same, we ask the wrong questions. The question is being created to create the good, taste, and the holy, knowing, how are we going to influence the universe as sons of god. This is hard to accept as fact. We have been trained to conceive these terms as arrogant and ignorant but this again is a confusion of form and content. That perceived arrogance comes from the fact that we are relatively informed but knowledge is complete. So this arrogance is not a scientific measurement it is a qualification, a matter of taste without quantification.

    Now you know that you are real. But to what your creative power is, it is not in manipulating matter into greater production. matter is in abundance, so you aren't creating events through perception you are creating events through thought word and deed.

    But to tell fact from fiction you use your powers of discernment. The ability to distinguish between what is the same and what is different,,absorption/refection and to determine what a thing is for, polarity. These account for the quantification of matter.

    If you qualify in any way, then you have lost sight of the matter all together settling on a matter of taste with no real accounting or quantification. The subjective perception has no limitation in it's ability to approach knowledge except the temptation to qualify. That is the temptation to have illusion be real.
     
  5. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    You aren't shooting out your eyeballs and making things coalesce you are observing whatever is there, to be quantified
     
  6. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I am also adding to whatever is there and not deducting it.....just in response to your last statement.
     
  7. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

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    What is the point?

    Of course the cat is a metaphor - so you discount my metaphors, and my analysis of that metaphor and what's wrong with it?

    The cat is a stupid metaphor.
     
  8. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    What additions or deletions? You add value, an abstraction to what is there but you can't take value away from it. You can appreciate or not but you can't offend god so to speak. There is no abstract value to it being every bit informed.

    So in the pussies analogy relating to the double slit experiment either side of the slit is the same, it is not going to one or the other, because the wave doesn't collapse you just see it one way and then another.because the particle isn't static, it doesn't die it keeps on relating or returns to a potent relatable state. You have just beheld a corridor of refraction of the ongoing wave. Even the double slit device itself is arbitrary.
     
  9. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    For catness?
     
  10. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    So how do we maintain any conscious continuity, through memory. Memory is stored information. We replicate through the stored information in the gene. We see the planet by virtue of this same thing. So the power of our minds together, importantly, maintains our perception in a continuous way that is of the absolutely real but all the same continuously arbitrary. The outstanding frankness of the illusion of permanence speaks to the quality of the power of mind. To hold these ever flowing waves in a temporal state. We don't create different realities we cultivate different perspectives. We couldn't make a convincing picture if we were not all in it together.
     
  11. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    It seems simple to me.

    A wave is only perceivable (exists) when time is part of the equation.

    Remove time from the equation and you have particles.

    Schrodinger's Cat analogy fucks with both time and probability in the equation, and

    that's why there is no definitive solution (cat dead or alive).

    Since Schrodinger's cat can be "thought of" as dead or alive, such an event as

    "thought of" implies a completely subjective experience and not anything observable

    or even real.

    It's a good mind fuck for those caught up in the Illusion of Time. ;)
     
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  12. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Time being what part as a function? It doesn't look like a simplification but adding another layer of divergence to the equation. We are real we create the temporal illusion. If there is nothing real to see, then we are not real. To think you are not real is insane.
     
  13. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    radioactive decay (the active principle in Schrodinger's box), includes time.

    The moment at which you "think of" the cat as dead or alive does not include a time dimension.

    That's why when you reintroduce time into the "think of" part, it changes the probabilities.

    So if you say given the rate of decay of the radioactive material, over the course of 1 hour the likelihood of the cat dying due to the release of poison (caused by radioactive decay) is X.

    It might be 2x over the course of two hours. And so you can NEVER get an exactly even chance.

    So you can't ever say "think of the cat as dead or alive" because in a time sense, it makes NO SENSE.

    You can only state the probabilities based upon timed radioactive decay.

    And as I stated earlier, there might not even be a cat in the box after two hours, if there ever was a cat that wasn't imaginary.

    It's a logical impossibility.

    Sorta like saying if Albert Einstein were alive today he'd be rolling over in his grave.

    And how can you not give any credit to an animal as intelligent as a cat to figure a way out, or avoid getting put in a box in the first place?

    So to solve the riddle, you must think OUTSIDE of Schrodinger's Box.
     
  14. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    You show it well and dissemble the box well. The complexity I am talking about is, it leaves a question about what is real, or least in my mind that is what it looks like you are saying.
    So there is a confusion between the concepts time and relative motion. If the cat was there it was a real cat and will always be a real cat being made of information. What made it come or go to be perceived was intent including the cat's. The cat was real but catness is malleable. The illusion of permanence is not the absence of it. So you could say that we are an out of time interval.
    Hope I didn't make things impossibly understandable on that journey.
    Not whether cat dead or alive but real or not.
     
  15. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    One more thing to consider (on the mundane level).

    You would ALWAYS know whether the cat is dead or alive!

    How?

    Put a real cat in a real box with a lid and see what I mean!

    That cat will never let you forget you have locked it in a box as long as it's still alive.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    I've got it!

    One must merge with the Universal Cat to transcend the illusion of Schrodinger's Box.

    Just as this gentleman here has done.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    Have you ever seen "trails" on LSD or other hallucinogen?

    What you might see by waving your hand in front of your face.

    What you are seeing is the waveform of the object thru space and time.

    The likely reason you see such "trails" is because your brain is receiving so much input, your internal processor can't process it fast enough so "trails" are like echos over time that create the illusion of a wave.

    The object distorts time and space (as all objects do), and it is that distortion that appears to be a wave.

    A waveform carries energy. The framework of space itself carries the energy, no? So is the wave the reaction of space to the motion of the object? Like the wake of a boat?

    What if space itself is a REACTIVE field of dark matter/energy? Would that account for all the invisible matter missing in the theories? It seems they keep looking for objects that have dark matter and energy. Perhaps it's space itself that is the source in some sort of a matrix we can't measure yet.
     
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  18. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Really quite impressive, the eureka moment and the beard.
     
  19. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    So I guess it didn't have anything to do with Schrodinger's balls he just didn't have a cat
     
  20. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    You seem to be supporting the many-worlds approach however the examples given, support some of the issues I have with the theory. The quantum events can be split off so much that eventually nothing becomes intelligible.

    So you think quantum computing is a pipe dream?

    Because from my understanding, alot of quantum computing is going to rely on this concept.
     

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