Crafty old McDonalds.

Discussion in 'Vegetarian' started by FrozenMoonbeam, May 17, 2004.

  1. Megara

    Megara Banned

    Messages:
    4,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why should i show you an ounce of respect when you cant even show me a modicum of respect?

    You have asked me for awhile why i get from veggies that some think they are better, here is a perfect example. When you start talking about PROGRESS, you are talking about something that is inherently 'better.' This is a view i disagree with it, i'll debate it freely as i see fit, if you have a problem with that, you can skip over my post, and you surely dont have to respond to anything i say. What courtesy exactly am i supposedly be shown? I have been attacked in every thread i've posted in EXCEPT ONE(The one i started). You obviously are either knowingly oblivious to me being attacked, or have not actually read half the threads replied to me.


    Yes, society has deemed eating meat as morally acceptable, the same way its been for a long, long time. You can enter these moral debates on just about everything. If society is not the judge of what is morally acceptable, than who is? PETA? Is there some overriding morality that you believe exists?

    and yes i know, "Some studies say..." I believe you said the 10-15% was a mid range number, so i dont see why you are having such a hard time coming up with statistics for it. Surely there must be one western nation that reaches 15% veggie/vegan....even though that wouldnt constitute nearly 'most of the western nations.'


    As i have said a thousands times before, and i am getting sick of having to repeat my reasons for being here. Because i want to. If you dont like that, ignore my posts and dont reply to me. It is as simple as that. The fact is, its very insulting for you to question my reasonings. Especially since i have spelled them uot numerous times.
     
  2. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

    Messages:
    4,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    But I do. I have done. Repeatedly. If you recall, I've frequently defended your right to post in this forum. I even respect your point of view - I just don't agree with it.


    That's an overly simplistic statement. I think a veggie diet is preferable, yes. But I do not think that following such a diet makes me 'better' than anyone else. Other people may do other things that contribute far more towards the world than this, so I have no right to say that I'm 'better' than someone else just based on my diet. You seem to be obsessed with the idea that veggies think that they're 'better' than you, to the point that you're determined to find evidence to support this, even when I've stated clearly and emphatically that I do not view myself as superior.


    Again, overly simplistic, as your interjections frequently de-rail existing conversations. It's hard to have a conversation when someone's shouting over the top of it.


    You're shown the courtesy (by myself, not always by others) that I'm polite to you and try and respect your point of view, even when I disagree with it.


    I've seen you personally attacked in threads, and I don't support that behaviour. However, the confrontational attitude that you adopt certainly contributes to this.


    No, I don't believe there's any over-arching moral authority. However, as we've agreed, morality changes over time. I don't see why you have such a problem with people holding an opinion, and attempting to move forward the debate of what is and isn't morally acceptable where diet is concerned. Nobody's trying to rip your burger from your hand. Nobody is trying to force you to stop eating meat. We're attempting to have a moral debate, which hopefully will result in more people willingly adopting a vegetarian diet. If they aren't won over by our argument, then they won't. What's so wrong with that?


    I'm not having a hard time at all. I simply haven't bothered looking because the statistic is of no importance to me. If you're that bothered about it, look it up yourself.


    It's insulting for me to question your reasoning, but it's not insulting for you to repeatedly question the reasoning behind vegetarianism?


     
  3. Megara

    Megara Banned

    Messages:
    4,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes you have, but you surely didnt in your past few posts.

    I never accused "you" of thinking you are better than anyone else. I have said "SOME" think that. WHen you start talking about progress you are making a judgment on what is better.

    I dont question why people become vegans/veggies, thats none of my business. I know many who have done it for a varieties of reasons, what yours or joe schmoes are exactly is of no consequence to me. What is of consequence to me is when people start trying to get others to convert. I resent it when churches do that, and i'll resent it when veggies do it too. Its similar to the church. I dont question what jewish people or protestants or muslims may think, but i will give all an earful if they try and preach to me.
     
  4. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

    Messages:
    4,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry, I'm not sure what you're referring to with this comment?


    Well you make a judgement about what is 'better' as soon as you become vegetarian, surely? Of course we think vegetarianism is preferable, but you need to understand the distinction - this does not mean that we think that we're 'better' than anyone else. I mean you make moral choices in your own life, surely? For example, if you choose to try and treat women with respect, do you therefore think that makes you 'better' than someone else?


    Furthermore, the whole debate is futile anyway. You say "some vegetarians" think they're 'better' than other people. Well of course they do! Some meat-eaters think the same. Some people are ass-holes. There's no point me pretending that all vegetarians are wonderful human beings any more than there is you defending all meat-eaters. Unless you want to talk about a specific person, then where do you see that argument progressing? All I can say is that in my experience IRL and on these boards, I've found the majority of veggies to be friendly, considerate, and tolerant of others. Sure there's a few ass-holes, but you'll find that in any walk of life.

    But it's not similar at all. There's a rational argument behind the vegetarian cause, whether you agree with it or not. And there's no threat of you burning in hell if you don't comply. Why is it wrong to attempt to convince people of your moral argument? To follow your logic through, you'd have objected to people trying to tell you that you shouldn't own slaves.


    We're coming back to the same old point here. This is a veggie forum. Your objection is therefore comparable to wandering into a church and objecting to being preached at.


     
  5. Megara

    Megara Banned

    Messages:
    4,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    what the hell? You ask me a question and i give an answer and then you berate me as if i was complaining? You ask a question, i gave an answer. Dont make it sound as if i just out of the blue whined that people were trying to convert me.

    Personally, i think you're being very, very, disrespectful towards religions with your statement. Nice extrapolation, yet so fatally flawed. No one has the right to own own slaves. Whether some judges in my country or yours deemed it acceptable was in violation to natural law. So no, that logic doesnt quite follow. I find being preached at very demeaning, the same as i do with churches trying to do it. I dont care what moral argument they use and i dont care what moral argument you use. Personally, i think the PETA and gree peace people on the street do more damage than good.


    as for where you have been disrespectful on this thread.... here

    "This is just a bullshit attitude you've got here, megara. You're in a vegetarian forum. You know we're all likely to believe that people giving up meat is a good thing. You've made your opinion clear on this a number of times, so now you're just being disruptive. Try and behave with a bit of respect, eh?"


    "
    No offence intended, but I really don't know why you're still here. I think we've established that you don't agree with the opinins of most veggies here, and they don't agree with you. I don't think there's likely to be much change in either of our opinions, so what's the point of this continued debate"
     
  6. Megara

    Megara Banned

    Messages:
    4,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    i have class, so i'll be back later.
     
  7. mrsshf

    mrsshf Member

    Messages:
    409
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please don't.
     
  8. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

    Messages:
    4,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm sorry, but you've totally lost me. It was my impression from your comments that you were complaining about people trying to convert you. Is this not the case? And I'm not attempting to berate you - I'm attempting to discuss the issues as politely as possible. You really need to stop taking everything so personally.


    What, exactly, is natural law? Who determined it? Was it not decided through the course of moral debate?


    You insist on choosing to use emotionally charged language. Why should someone presenting a moral case be seen as 'preaching'? The logical conclusion of what you say is that if someone has a moral belief, they should never try and advocate it. If this was so, then society would never have progressed, and would stagnate.


    Which was in response to you yet again leaping in and hijacking a thread. Don't you think we're just a little bit off topic now? That's disruptive. It's a veggie forum. Do you think that it's reasonable that you consistently drag up the same arguments over and over again that we've already debated politely with you on a number of occasions?


     
  9. squawkers7

    squawkers7 radical rebel

    Messages:
    5,188
    Likes Received:
    3
    Megara, people had the right to have a fair presidential race before too, but ask the state of Florida if they got it. Besides what is the constitution doing in a forum that was about vegetarianism or one called "crafty old McDonald's". Guess ya like eating fast food JUNK and politicians "BULLCRAP". Gee, I guess I just gave ya something else to whine about...it's ok, ya haven't complained about me for awhile. But afterwards can we get back to talking about vegetarianism?
     
  10. Pablo

    Pablo Member

    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    3
    ok, you need to take a look at yourself, you are coming here purely to be hostile, were not going to make it illegal to eat meat, we want to show more people the rtuth about eating meat and animal products and let them, seeing the real truth, choose. Therefore we cannot hurt you, and all that we would even try to do to you is convince you to be a vegitarian, which we will only do if you come to places like this and talk about it. And since you have no intention of becoming vegitarian or learning about it, you are here purely to be hostile, you take all disagreement as an attack and trun all debates into a childish fight. You are the hostile one, you only act civil when you are atempting to attack someones civility.

    And i'd to the otheres, since he said hes going for now, i think. It really anoys me that we cant discuss vegitarian issues in our vegitarian forum because every time we try to talk some omnivre comes in and takes over the thread with their fighting, then says that we force our veiws on them. This culture of pretend victems sickens me.
     
  11. matthew

    matthew Almost sexy

    Messages:
    9,302
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think we agree killing animals is not right
    In a ideal world:
    If it was practical then we would support a collapse of the meat industry.
    If it was slowly fazed out and other jobs provided.


    The thing is you asked me why i thought mcdonalds was a good organisation . Have i done this yet. I did not want too debate the fact . You just asked me why i thought that way . I think i have done that (links and all). like i said condensing all the reasons would take forever...i think i have stated why In a couple of nutshells . But tou just keep trying to pick faults and avoid a completion on what I am doing . Therefore continuing my side and never getting onto yours... You can have your debate when you have stated your alternative point of view.

    We have to have 2 static opinions either way so I have something to challenge you on. Don't you think.????
     
  12. matthew

    matthew Almost sexy

    Messages:
    9,302
    Likes Received:
    0



    I should have said that gasing innocent people as far as i am aware is done and was done by military organisations..so soldiers maintained there use..... actualy fuck it , thats just a horrible analogy too use . How can you be smart one minute and use ridiculous analogies the next ....

    I fear you whole retort (WHEN IT EVENTUALY COMES) to me is going to be 'meat is murder' so no other reason for me to think them bad is required...Please do not let me be right .... please.
     
  13. Megara

    Megara Banned

    Messages:
    4,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    You asked me why i repeatedly question vegetarianism. I said i dont question what people eat or why they eat it, i question and criticize them preaching to me.

    Natural laws are laws that exist outside any laws that men make. Men have the right to live. No law any nation makes has the right to take away an innocent persons life(many would argue any persons life). Who determined natural law? Nature. They are not laws that men make, they are laws that just exist. Now many philosophers have recognized that natural law exists from aquinas to hobbes to locke and so on.

    I use the word preach because thats exactly what they are doing. Maybe some are angered that i use the word because it has religious connotations..hrmm. Would society be stagnant if no one preached anything. In most instances yes. However, just because someone puts forth a moral argument doesnt make it acceptable. I believe hitler(since you're fond of hte holocaust/meat industry analogy) put forth moral arguments on why they needed to purify the race. However, i dont see us as progressing by not killing animals. The progressions we have made in the past 2000 years have been ones to people mostly. However, i dont think you'll find a strong foundation of people who accept your ideas. People discern a difference between going out and killing an endangered animal and eating meat from a cow. One is senseless killing, one is for a personal diet. Huge difference.



    i hijacked this thread? lets look at this...

    So, by asking for a clarification, i HIJACKED a thread?

    now, i think it was YOU doktor, that hijacked the thread when you said...




    So please, tell me how i am dragging up the same arguments by asking what he meant as 'progress.'

    So lets see, the last 2 threads i posted on this forum were the one about mcdonalds and the one about peta, which was 1 week ago. Somehow, me asking what 'progress' was, is some how digging up old shit about mcdonalds and why peta is bad.

    It was you who jumped in with the rude and crass comment, not me.
     
  14. Megara

    Megara Banned

    Messages:
    4,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hardly here to be hostile. A lot of people in this forum dont recognize that the way they say things are loaded and absolutely insulting to omnis. Especially when you start talking about progress. If progress is a meat free world, then meat eaters are inherently worse than non meat eaters. What may seem as an innocent statement to you, is very, very insulting to many others.

    As for my statement about civility. It was directed at doktor, who sent a very similar message to me in another thread. When he was obnoxious to me, i handed it right back to him.


    I dont konw what the presidential race has to do with anything. the constitution was brought up since doktor inferred that by my logic i'd be for slavery, and i said, no i would not, because we are guaranteed rights in the constitution that are for all men. I am not stopping anyone from talking about vegetarianism. This thread was like 9 pages long, with other arguments going on long before i interjected with my question about progress was
     
  15. Pablo

    Pablo Member

    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    3
    well if your going to infer insult than are you saying we should not talk positively of vegitarinaism because it implies that omnivores are bad? thats just stupid. God forbid you come in the vegitarian forums forums and were talking like vegitarianism is a good thing. Hey i bet in the nudist forums their talking like nudity is a good thing! Oh god! what if in the poetry forums their acting like poetry is a good thing! NO! its not posible!
     
  16. Megara

    Megara Banned

    Messages:
    4,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    lol, if talking positively of vegetarianism requires putting down omnis, yeah, i guess i do have a problem with that. It seems even most religious people have PROGRESSED past that stage.


    *yawn*
     
  17. clawsy

    clawsy Member

    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don’t you get it Megara? Its not what people eat its about animal suffering and animal rights. Everyone has rights to be free and do stuff we want, but if we are doing stuff that hurts others, then the right to do that stuff should lose out to the others right to freedom.

    I couldn’t less what you eat, it’s NOT about eating its about cruelty and needless killing.

    Go eat animals that died of natural causes I couldn’t care less if you stuff your face with them 24./7.

    It’s the violence and killing that is totally needless, that I care about. i don’t care if you stuff your face with pooh. Just don’t hurt animals in the process.

    You say AR is the minority, do you know all rights movements were made by minorities, when women got rights, it was a minority who fought very hard and long to get them. People argued that women weren’t man enough to be allowed equal rights, that blacks weren’t white enough. Now people like you say animals are not human enough so they are not allowed rights, their right to life loses our over some persons TASTEBUDS! How sick is that?
    MY tastebuds are more important than an animals life… that is disgusting .

     
  18. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

    Messages:
    4,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pablo....

    Exactly. We get accused of trying to preach to meat eaters, and yet this is a veggie forum, set up for veggies, which they visit by choice. Like I said before, if you don't wanna be preached at, then don't go to church. Although I still don't see why presenting a rational argument and attempting to present your case in a reasonable fashion equates to preaching!


    Matthew...

    You're still ignoring the point. An opinion is not a series of links. It's something that you personally believe, extrapolated from all the information at your disposal. You've mentioned some things that you believe about mcd's, but the majority of your argument has constituted posting links. I'm not attempting to pick faults in your argument, I'm just trying to explain to you that you're not actually presenting one. What you're doing is presenting someone else's argument.

    Explain to me why that's a ridiculous analogy. It's an activity that many companies (some of whom are still in business today) profitted from. It's an activity that we all accept as morally disgusting. So why's it not a good analogy? You might more reasonably argue that it's tasteless, but as an analogy, it's excellent.


    What the fuck are you talking about? I've explained to you why I believe mcd's to be bad. Your argument revolves around posting links, so I've posted a link in return which summarises my case. Therefore, it really comes down to which source you choose to believe.


     
  19. Megara

    Megara Banned

    Messages:
    4,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree, if what we do hurts others, we shouldnt have that freedom. That doesnt include animals though.

    Erm, most animals that die of natural causes arent healthy to eat..no thanks

    No, i think AR is supported by the majority. However, that doesnt go as far as saying we cant kill to eat. No one wants senesless pain and suffering, even by animals that are bound to the slaughterhouse. Thinking we should stop eating meat is a minority opinion, a very, very, very small minority opinion.

    As we've gone over several times before. Is it not sick that animals get squashed in turbines so you can eat your veggies? Is it not sick that aniamls get killed everyday by cars, by being displaced by society? Of course its sick. Nature is sick. That is not to say that we shouldnt cut down on the horror of it all, that goes without saying.

    I find it ironic that so many people claim "we are no better than animals!" and then try to bring us to another plane of existence by saying we can stop killing animals. Carnivores and omnivores KILL in the wild. Its great that you dont want to eat meat, i applaud you, but dont try and thrust your beliefs onto me. Not everyone sees the world like you do.
     
  20. clawsy

    clawsy Member

    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    "That doesnt include animals though. "<----why?
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice