Coptic Christians murdered

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Nimrod's Apprentice, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. I saw on the news today a family of Coptic Christians in New Jersey found dead with their throats slit, it was said to be done by militant muslims that they talked to online. Seriously man if thats the truth then FUCK ISLAM, FUCK ALLAH and destroy the fuck out of all of this bullshit. I read that they do this all the time in Egypt and Ethiopia, where Coptics have lived for fuckin so long. FUCK ISLAM. Its hell I want to fuckin bomb the middle east if this is true. End that pitiful religion. Islam should be outlawed if this is fuckin true, im sick of hearing their bullshit, their sneaky. The great gods of old europe would look at them as the scum of loki. Those sneaky fucking trickster pricks blowing up our tanks in Iraq, can't fight with honor. I no longer think of Islam as honorable. Prisoner religion of scum. STRIKE DOWN ISLAM!
    1 person likes this.
  2. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    Hossam Armanious, 47, who along with his wife and two daughters was found stabbed to death in his Jersey City home early Friday, would regularly debate religion in a Middle Eastern chat room, one source said.
    Armanious, an Egyptian Christian, was well known for expressing his Coptic beliefs and engaging in fiery back-and-forth with Muslims on the Web site

    He "had the reputation for being one of the most outspoken Egyptian Christians," said the source, who had close ties to the family.

    The source, who had knowledge of the investigation, refused to specify the anti-Muslim statement. But he said cops told him they were looking into the exchanges as a possible motive.

    The married father of two had recently been threatened by Muslim members of the Web site, said a fellow Copt and store clerk who uses the chat room.

    "You'd better stop this bull---- or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you," was the threat, said the clerk, who was online at the time and saw the exchange

    But Armanious refused to back down, according to two sources who use the Web site.

    Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah Healy would neither confirm nor deny that cops and prosecutors were looking into the religion motive, saying only that "nothing is being ruled out." But a relative of the mayor who answered the phone at Healy's home said there was information the murders were "religion-related."

    "There are several theories we are looking into, but we are not commenting on any of them at this time," said Hudson County Assistant Prosecutor Guy Gregory.

    Armanious' fervor apparently rubbed off on his daughter, Sylvia — who would have turned 16 yesterday.

    "She was very religious and very opinionated," said Jessica Cimino, 15, a fellow sophomore at Dickenson HS.

    A family member who viewed photos of the bloodbath said Sylvia seemed to have taken the most savage punishment.

    "When we saw the pictures, you could tell that they were hurt really, really bad in the face; especially Sylvia," said Milad Garas, the high-school sophomore's great-uncle.

    The heartless killer not only slit Sylvia's throat, but also sliced a huge gash in her chest and stabbed her in the wrist, where she had a tattoo of a Coptic cross.

    Also found murdered were the wife, Amal Garas, and the parents' other daughter, Monica.

    Fred Ayed, the deacon at St. George and St. Shenouda Church, where the deeply religious family attended services, said he's worried that the murders could have a ripple effect.

    "I am concerned for the safety of our community," said Ayed, who knew Hossam for 30 years. "People are scared because one family was slain like cows," said Moheb Ghabour, publisher of a local newspaper for the Coptic community.

    Osama Hassan, director of the Islamic Center of Jersey City, described the relationship between Copts and Muslims as cooperative if not friendly.

    "I think there might be people that can get into physical fights, but not to the point of murder," Hassan said.

    Both the deacon and uncle poured cold water on the theory that the family were the victims of a robbery gone wrong.

    "This is not a robbery, Ayed said. "We found all of the jewelry in the house. They didn't take anything.",2933,144573,00.html

    great article by ali sina on jihadwatch about why the media are not covering this enough
  3. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    This is the interesting thing. Mohammed was married to a Coptic Christian girl. Moreover, Coptic Christians in Ethiopia were supposed to be forever exempt from Jihad for the Negus of the Ethiopia's sheltering Mohammed's family that was persecuted and fled Mecca. This is why Ethiopia remained an island of Christianity surrounded by Islam, and cut off from the rest of the Christian world for over 1000 years.

    I have to say this: Islam is not a peaceful religion. Mohammed was a military general. He led raids against neighboring tribes, he conquered huge swaths of land in the name of his faith. People can water it down however they like, but when the founder of a religion spills blood to further the faith, what do you expect of their followers?

    With Buddhism and Christianity you at least have the premise of non-violence.
  4. Thanks for the info man this is a really awful story. If its a crusade they want, then lets blow them up.
  5. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. 11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
  6. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    Nimrod, your post was only affrontive and without a real point and I see no reason to answer such a foolish statement.

    ...Say: "Perish in your rage. Certainly, Allah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets). '

    3.120 If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but if some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it. But if you remain patient and have Taqwa, not the least harm will their cunning do to you. Surely, Allah surrounds all that they do.[Quran]

    It says in the quran(interpretation of the meaning)

    Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks

    Review your words before posting them. The christians through out ancient history had this custom of killing all inhabitants that were not following their religion, killing and expelling jews and then burn their temples. The jews had been forbidden to enter country after country and the christians destroyed the holy places of the jews when they conquered Jerusalem. When the muslim entered therein, Umar ibnu Khattab(may Allah be pleased with him) a close companion of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) ordered for the filth which the christians had imposed on one of the jews holy places to be removed.

    Show me one authentic narration where the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) drew a sword and directed it to someone and thus compelled him to convert, his companions did not do this nor did the righteous people after them. It is recognized that jews, christians and muslims lived peacefully together in a period over 800 years in Spain under a muslim goverment. This is a letter from Khalid, also one of the companions, look at this letter and tell me if the christians ever such a treaty so any country during this period of time:

    "This is what Khalid ibn al-Walid would grant to the inhabitants of Damascus if he enters therein: he promises to give them security for their lives, property and churches. Their city wall shall not be demolished, neither shall any Muslim be quartered in their houses. Thereunto we give them the pact of Allah and the protection of His Prophet, the caliphs and the believers. So long as they pay the poll tax, nothing but good shall befall them. "

    Poll tax(jizay) is the fee that christian countries payed so as to be protected and maintained by the muslim goverment, the civilians didn't want anything to do with christianity anyway. In some places they were called heroes, why wouldn't they?
    They brought saftey and peace into a place where the church ruled with oppression. Orientalist W. Montgomery Watt says;
    "Of all the world's greatest men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad."

    "Muhummed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities. " Encyclopedia Britannica
    "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: - Geaorge Bernand Shaw

    If islams main goal had been killing jews and christians then WHY, why do we find millions of christians still living in muslim countries like Egypt and Syria and there churches still intact ever sense the muslim arrived there.
    This was not the case with the christians in Spain where they killed and expelled the muslims, do we find muslims or mosques in Spain today?

    This is the premise for non-violence in the bible:

    "Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."[Numbers]

    And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.[Ezek. 9:5]

    The jews learned in the talmud from the first verse that sleeping with 3 year olds is allowed.
    Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse.

    This was the advise that the closest companion of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) gave:

    "I advise you ten things: Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."

    And the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said:
    Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise

    90. Verily, Allah orders justice and kindness, and giving (help) to the relatives, and He forbids immoral sins, and evil and tyranny. He admonishes you, so that perhaps you may take heed
  7. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    Thank you for the post Cabdirazzaq, always good to have a discussion, instead of fueling hatred. Nimrod, come on, you gonna wage war on 1/5 of the world's population? Cabdirazzaq has a good point that Christians were not only allowed by Muslims to practice their faith in peace, but Muslims were actually invited into many Christian areas in North Africa/Middle East.

    The Byzantine government had been imposing orthodox doctrine on the Monophysites (copts included) and persecuting those who did not fall in line. The Muslims offered protection for Coptic and Oriental Orthodox Christians from the Byzantine gov. and agreed not to interfere with their religious beliefs. Judaism and Christianity, while regarded as perhaps flawed and incomplete, were nevertheless regarded as religions of "the book" and were granted some degree of religious tolerance. This wasn't complete tolerance. Christians, for example, in Turkey, were not allowed to build churches taller than 6ft tall! (in response, they dug churches down into the ground). Christians were not allowed to hold many jobs, etc. and the tax was an additional 15% (approx. from what i remember) on top of what the muslim population had to pay.

    In response to the quotes from the Old Testament that justify violence, I agree, Judaism is also weighed down by a violent past that is somehow santified in scripture. Acts of genocide, forced religous compliance, etc. abound. Christianity is also burdened and informed by this recognition of OT as valid scripture.

    With Jesus and Buddha, both dealt with legitimized violence as part of their culture and creed. Both rejected it and tried to move their followers toward a different path. The problem with Christianity was its bedfellow beginning in the 4th C., politics and state sponsorship. The violence displayed by Christians for over 1000 years was discusting and is a testament to how far these Christians had strayed from their faith. My point was that with Christianity, you have a serious contradiction with those people who practice violence on behalf of their faith and the words written in Christian scripture (New Testament, which superceeds OT violence). In Islam, you have violence supported by scripture itself:

    (Surah 8)

    1 They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger...

    12 ...I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

    39:And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.

    60 Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.

    65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

    67 It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land.

    Now, admittedly, some of this is taken out of context. Yet this is only from one Surah! I could go on and on. This is not at all similar to the language of the New Testament where believers are exhorted to "turn the other cheek" to "put away your sword" to "do unto others", etc. etc.

    I am sure there are holes in the arguement above. If I am misinformed, let me know.
  8. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    I looked at your public profile and it said that your a teacher, perhaps history?

    Yes as you your self pointed out, some of these verses are outside context which could make them look different than if the context would have been presented.
    Albeit, you have to remember that the muslims were killed and oppressed for years when living in Mecca and they were waiting for a call, revelation to come down so they could fight this injustice.

    Those who believe say: "Why is not a Surah sent down (for us)'' But now that a decisive Surah is sent down mentioning fighting, you can see those in whose hearts is disease (of hypocrisy) looking at you with the look of one who is about to faint for fear of death. But it was better for them.

    The muslims were waiting for the premission to fight the pagans through arm stuggle, this is why jihad is mentioned in those chapters that were revealed in medina and not mecca, before this they were repedeatly called to ignore them, like the verse(interpretation of the meaning):

    But turn away from them, and say "Peace!" But soon shall they know!

    And they did come to know, the small nation that was mocked and slandered soon became the largest nation at that time and the persians as well as the byzantites was conquered by the muslims even though 20 years before they used to have laughs about these arabs that are so poor and so useless. Let us not forget that the largest muslim nation, Indoneisa was not conquered but they converted through out series of business trips and exchanging of views. It all happend as it was predicted even though the hypocrites at that time laughed at these statements, they did occur.

    I have been given the keys to the Kingdom of Persia; my Community will conquer it. He struck the rock a second time and, again in the light of the sparks caused by the blow, declared: God is the Greatest. I have been given the keys to the Empire of Byzantium. My Community will conquer it.

    Firstly the OT is to be followed by christians, who say so, I don´t, the bible does: " Jesus said 'Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fufil them.'"

    Secondly we find violence in the NT as well:

    "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 19:26-28)"

    "So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"

    "He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 22:36)"

    "Do not suppose that I [Jesus] have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 10:34)"
  9. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

    These passages refer to the final judgment to be carried by God; His followers are not to take this upon themselves. (See Rom. 12.)

    Jesus often spoke in hyperbole. Shortly after this, when Peter actually used his sword, Jesus rebuked him. Read also the Book of Acts, and you'll see that none of the Apostles ever used violence to advance the gospel, though they often encountered violent opposition.

    This passage is clearly metaphorical. He's talking about the relational divisions that often result from his claims of absolute allegiance.
  10. Magnus76

    Magnus76 Member

    Read the New Testament of the Holy Bible and reflect on the way that the main character, Jesus Christ, worked though words and actions. He didn't walk around killing people, he healed them instead. The cause he died for (as far as I understand) was a clear non-violence statement. Would it be blasphemy to follow his example? Even in times of war?

  11. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    Sense when did Muhammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) go around on the streets with a sword and kill people?
    The way in which the prophets preached are very similiar, they were warners and bringers of glad tidings, neither Jesus(peace be upon him) nor Muhammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) were exempted from this.

    We know best what they say; and thou art not one to overawe them by force. So admonish with the Qur'an such as fear My Warning [Quran 050.045]

    Lets not forget that there a difference between these prophets, Jesus(peace be upon him) did not have a great nation like Muhammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and Moses(peace be upon him) so how can warfare even stand as a question?, this further proves that the propheicy discussed previously was speaking of Muhammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him).

    And Jesus(peace be upon him) did not sacrifice him self, he was ready to fight his enemies sence the situation had changed.

    "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!"

    As the situation changed there could be no more cheek turning to ward of these enemies.

    ". . . behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough".

    According to the bible he had placed 8 of the 13 diciples at the entrance to the courtyard

    "... Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder."

    It is obvious that this man is defending him self and placing guards in different locations ready for a battle.

    "And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee. . .
    Then saith he unto them...
    tarry ye here and watch with me."

    Why? To guard ofcourse! Then he went to pray for rescue.

    "And he went a little further, and fell on his face (Exactly as the Muslim does in Salaat), and prayed, saying, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."
    (This is the quality of a good Muslim who submits his will to the will of God).
    Matthew 26: 37-39

    "And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly;

    and his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground’’
    Luke 22:44

    Then the situation changed and so the orders changed as well:

    ". . . Put up again thy sword into its place; for all they that TAKE THE SWORD shall PERISH WITH THE SWORD."

    What suprises me is that when a christian sees a verse he likes in the OT he quotes it often but if he dislikes it he shunnes it, is it not all from the Lord?

    Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge? [Quran]
  12. juggla

    juggla Member

    in the koran it tells musslims to respect the people of the book (christians and jews unless attacked by them) but theres some who dont follow it, its like when jesus said to love your enemies but not all christians live up to that.
  13. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

    The Old Testament must be understood in light of the New. It's really not that complicated, if you take the time to study them both in context.
  14. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    the quran tells muslims not to take a christian or a jew as a friend.
    mohammed ethnically cleaned arabia of jews, had a jewish girl who he captured, killed all her family and raped.
    jews are still not allowed to live in arabia or even visit
    christians cant build churches there or mark graves with crosses .
    doesnt sound very respectful

    please read this and try to understand it
  15. Yea I was really amped when I heard taht sorry for being so harsh on muslims, I know Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the same god. I also think Islam is one of the best ways of following this spirituality its just that this isn't a religious debate. In my own country a family was murdered by supposedly a muslim terrorist "gang". Thats what they are though, their just gangsters, and they can hide behind this veil that Islam allows them too. The idea of Jihad and all that struggle Idea and shit. But when these fuckers are gonna be such pussies and hide behind their masks and false ideas of Islam, and just be ruthless gangsters then one of two things has to go. Your brain does not work logically if you can't agree with that. These guys are sneaks hiding out in MY COUNTRY when were trying to fix the middle east so it is a free nation. THERE IN MY COUNTRY, they could BEHEAD ME AT ANYTIME BECAUSE I AM DIFFERENT. Now back to the 2 things either A. eliminate the gangs, which is what my country is desperately TRYING TO DO! Or else eliminate the veil they can hide behind and expose the motherfuckin "wizard of oz" behind all this shit. WHICH IS ISLAM! Just like when a gun is put in the hands of a fucked up mind it is dangerous. If guns are illegal, then I think Islam should also be illegal. Because when a person can be brainwashed by some evil fuck to commit evil and say that its good, ITS SO FUCKIN TWISTED IT SICKENS ME. Destroy one of the two.....DROP THE MOTHERFUCKING ULTIMATUM IN IRAQ TOO
    either tell all the muslim nations to fuckin root out these evil sneaky godless anti-christ motherfuckers. Or EVERYONE must be eliminated. Man woman and child. To insure that this weapon of mass destruction that is Islam is only continued in its true sense. If you cant fucking root these terrorists out on your own, then you dont deserve to be alive.

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