Consciousness, A Discussion

I don't think that the fact that he didn't jump out of the window means that his theories are incorrect. Whether the Universe is made out of Consciousness or not, or an afterlife or not, dying is still a big deal. So i don't find that to be a great argument.

 

Well no shit it sounds like something Ancient. Ever think there might be a reason for that? And the difference between him and New Agers is that he is a Scientist, so that's not really a valid argument.

Humanity just isn't ready to bridge Science and Spirituality it seems, so it's no wonder that even a Scientist confirming anything of this nature is just going to be concluded to be 'woo-woo', which you are locking into your reality the moment that you conclude that. Even your conclusion is just Quantum Mechanics at work.

 

If material reality is an illusion, why would he die?

 

Let me include my comments on this from the other thread here too. PLease don't think I am being argumentive Okiefreak---I appreciate your input. Despite the fact that I disagree with Stenger, I am going to dig deeper into his work---I am glad you brought him up:

Now for this--

I believe that death frees us from the illusion of the physical world, to return to who we truly are---and I do not mean a return to a cosmic consciousness----I mean a return to our individual selves. Even if we are composed of a cosmic consciousness as essence, along with everything else, I don't see the purpose of returning to the universe itself----life may have hardships, but it also has joy, happiness, and love----and we are here to experience!

I beleive that physical reality is an illusion so that we may experience. But that does not mean that it is not real. The real illusion is that it is far more fleeting and temporal than we believe it to be. Kant probably did not realize how true he was when he claimed that we could not know things as they are---the thing in itself.

 

It is a great counter argument or challenge, however it doesn't necessarily mean he is wrong. But it's great because it calls into question his conviction in his arguments, much like my challenge to you to get a jetpack and fly to Mercury, which if you succeeded, you would almost be guaranteed to be a pioneer and displace much of the scientific understanding of the cosmos. You would likely JumpStart some of the cultural transitions you've been yammering about since the 2012 thread. Why would you not choose to do this if you truly believed it? Or if goswami truly believed some of his bolder claims?

If you had the means, then the only reasons I can see not putting your beliefs to the test would be subconscious 'sensible' biological input dictating doubt, that these in fact are not good ideas.

 

This relates to something that has amazed me about Native Americans who follow the 'Red Road,' and to me as well now that I participate---it is as if I exist (and they exist) in two very different worlds. In one world, the world I pretty much grew up in, nothing amazingly unrealistic happens to people, and everything happens in a rational technologically assisted manner. The religious talk of miracles that supposedly happened to someone somewhere at some time---but I never really experienced any such thing directly. And the world around us is an inanimate world of things. If we get seriously ill, we have to have health insurance, but we still end up spending much of our accumulated wealth to get better---and many of us do, though sooner or later we all die. Many of those who do get better, must take medicine for the rest of their lives, or they will die (woe be them if society does break down)...

The world of the Red Road, on the other hand, is an enchanted living world filled with signs and spirits. In our world, these signs are synchronicities that are very rare, and that we can write off as just strange coincidence or a misinterpretation of circumstances. In the world of the Red Road they are very common, and far too often indicate, or point to, actual causal reality to be written off as coincidence or even superstition. There is a continuous living interaction between the Natives and the spirit world, and this interaction plays out daily in their lives, shaping their reality. When they get seriously ill, they have IHS (Indian Health Services), but for serious illness, they will go to the medicine man, and it will cost them some tobacco. Once their prayers are answered they will provide food for a ceremony or do a give-away---either way it is from the heart and well within their means. I assume that not everyone is healed, after all everyone dies someday----but every healing ceremony I have been to has ended with the person healed----no medicine that they have to take the rest of their lives, no invasive surgery, or poisons ingested into their systems. They are simply healed. In my own experience I have seen kidney stones, cancer, and heart disease cured.

The spirits are so alive on the Red Road, that people do not question their existence. In the Modern Western world we have to 'believe' in god, 'believe' in ghosts, 'believe' in spirits---because they have no true existence or presence in our lives for us to 'know' that they exist.

However I do have a friend who is in a wheelchair, she had been paralyzed from the waist down in a bad accident. She has had healing ceremonies, and she has stood up in the ceremony of her own accord. Then in a sweat lodge she says that she was standing and didn't even realize she did that except that her head hit the top of the lodge and she had to bend over to stand. She is no longer paralyzed as she can move her feet and legs---I know this because I have driven her numerous times and she uses a board to get from the wheel chair to the car, and moves her legs in first. Numerous medicine men tell her that she can walk, the only reason she can't is in her own head. She believes that something has to happen to her first before she can walk, as there is a reason, she says, why she is in the wheelchair. Though many say that she has become emotionally dependent on the attention she gets because she is in a wheelchair, and whether she realizes it or not, that is why she doesn't walk already.

The thing is, it is all about belief. These Natives who walk the Red Road have a sincere and genuine belief in a reality that includes spirits---and so their world is filled with them. Modern Western Man does not, so our world is cut off from such things.

By the same token, if you truly believed that you could jump out of a window and float in the air, I believe that you could do that. But this is not something that we could kind of believe in, or fake a belief in, or even force a belief in. Our conscious mind tells us that this cannot happen. Our understanding of physical reality is that it cannot happen. Other people around us do not believe that we can do it either. Because of all this disbelief it is not a reality for us.

A child born into a poor family believes that poverty is his reality, at best, he might believe he can rise up into the middle class. Everyone around him has the same beliefs in regards to who he is and what his prospects are. Meanwhile, a kid born into a very wealthy family, believes that he will always be rich, as does everyone around him. The choices these kids make shape their reality, but it all falls back on belief. On the other hand, that poor kid that believes he has a way out of poverty, and might even become very wealthy---he or she is the one that breaks out of it.

 

The social issues of Economic class are a vastly different situation than defying the laws of gravity.

The challenge to jump out the window was to Goswami, who presumably DID believe that he would be able to 'float in the air'. That is why the challenge is good imo, it is a compromise of making sure the implications of what he is saying are understood, saying 'ok well provide some evidence'. The same could be said to the "flying rattles" you mentioned, having a go pro or something handy would be great, so those of us who are skeptical of the phenomena can get a glimpse of it. If there is in fact rattles floating in the air unhinged, think of the potential that has to shatter some of the understanding of physics?

I've explored psychedelics for over a decade, so I understand the notion that reality is not as set as it may seem. I also know psychology and understand that belief can influence certain aspects of the mind. However with both of those paradigms, misperceptions are another aspect, so I think when it comes down to it, providing evidence to test the veracity of the claims is the best standard to go by.

 

where did you read that Goswami actually thought he could float in the air?

 

And here's another study...http://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.05949v1.pdf

 

death=0 consciousness

 

And nowhere in this does Goswami say that he thinks he will float

 

The challenge is to Goswami to float because

There's only two ways to interpret what Goswami said a) he directly thinks he controls the material world with his consciousness and therefore should be able to accept the challenge to float or b) it's a bunch of verbal mumbo jumbo that has no real meaning.

 

Okay, but even if Goswami didn't float, how do we know that every possibility didn't come true and that he didn't just fall to the ground in our particular reality? There would really be no way to confirm whether he floated or not. Because who knows what the fuck is going on here, quantum physics.

 

I don't think he tried because he has a streak of charlatan in him, not Deepak Chopra status but still, but regardless The challenge is in this universe anyways.

 

Maybe he did try, just not in this universe. Maybe the one who didn't try in this universe decided not to because he knew he was going to in another universe anyway.

 

That's all that you can conclude on the notion of Non-Locality and/or a Non-Local Consciousness? Really?

 

What I'm tired of is being asked to "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!" and then I do and the only response I get it is "Charlatanism!" "Blasphemy!" ....he's a Quantum Physicist with a Ph.D and he's not the only one interested in Non-Locality. What more do you want? How are you comparing him to Deepak Chopra?

I don't think he tried because he has a streak of charlatan in him, not Deepak Chopra status but still, but regardless The challenge is in this universe anyways.

 

That's all he can conclude... RUN HIS MOUTH AND then not put up when someone takes him seriously and suggests to jump out the window LOL

 

PSEUDOSCIENCE