CONFLICTED by Shale November 14, 2015 It has been exactly half a century since I tearfully said goodbye to my first girlfriend in October 1965. This was in Turkey and I, the still 20-year-old Agnostic U.S. Airman fell in love with Halet, the 17-year-old Muslim Turk over an exciting, passionate summer. I was so taken by this strawfire romance that I asked her to marry me but fortunately she declined. In this past half-century there have been many changes in me and the world. I have had many new experiences, from dropping out of the mainstream culture and doing mind-altering drugs, to loving many women and men of all races and spiritual beliefs. I vacillated from Atheist, Agnostic to Eastern Filosofy, mostly Buddhist. Read Buddhist Scriptures and the New Testament and saw Jesus as a Buddhist voice in the Middle East. I even followed my partner Jim's spiritual master Meher Baba for more years than we were together and visited the Meher Spiritual Center in Myrtle Beach with my wife Brenda. One of Meher Baba's tenets was to bring all religions together like beads on one string and he had followers who still maintained their Hindu, Muslim, Christian or whatever beliefs while still accepting him as Spiritual Master. Even tho I wished for that inclusiveness, I always had a problem with Islam. It was the bloody history of Islam, of conquering the world by the sword and putting infidels to death if they did not accept the religion. This militant proselytizing religion spread all across the Middle East to India and beyond, forcing itself on other beliefs by threat of death. Before Islamist apologist scream too loudly, let me acknowledge that Christianity in the Middle Ages into the Early Renaissance had the same horrific history. In fact, there was a time that I admired Islam for stopping the Christians from taking over the whole world. Interestingly, Meher Baba was born into a Zoroastrian family in India. There are no longer Parsi in Iran where they originated, all exiled or killed by Muslims. But then the world changed. The Renaissance in Europe happened, then the Enlightenment where the Christian Churches were forced to give up their stranglehold on secular culture. Ppl were eventually free to subscribe to whatever religious fantasy they chose or even to be non-believers. This was the culture in which I grew up. Altho the Christian influence was still strongly felt on secular government, I was free to disagree and protest these intrusions. Not so in the Muslim World. As a child, I heard tales of the old Muslim Kingdoms still existing in the medieval mindset. There was still slavery into the mid 20th Century and women were considered property of men, just as it was in the Dark Ages of Europe. Then, I was stationed in a predominantly Muslim country near Istanbul. I had access to an apartment on Buyukada, a resort island in the Marmara Sea. I met a girl, dressed just like the girls in Europe and the States. At first I thot she was Greek Orthodox by culture, but no, Halet was Müslüman. This modern Western style of a Muslim girl was because Turkey has been a secular nation since 1928 and this was supported by its first president Mustafa Kemal Ataturk who wanted to move this remnant of the Ottoman Empire into modern Europe. Today, Muslim Turks are still fighting Muslim extremists on their borders and endure the threat of terrorists much like Europe. And, yesterday Muslim extremists did another terrorist affront on the modern world by attacks in Paris. Before that it was attacks on journalists in Paris who mocked that asswipe Muhammad (Jan 2015). Before that it was an attack on the Boston Marathon (Apr 2013). Before that it was attacks on the United States, killing over 3K ppl (Sep 2001). Before that it was a fatwa on Salman Rushdie for blasphemy - a medieval concept (Feb 1989). All these atrocities medieval attempts to curtail modern freedoms compel me to yell FUCK ISLAM! Then the apologists yell at me NOT ALL MUSLIMS. But, if ANY Muslim (or Christian) can find justification to kill ppl in their holy book then, in my opinion that whole religion is FUCKED UP. So, you see, I am conflicted when in anger I yell FUCK ISLAM. I think of Halet, whom I have lost contact with for half a century. I wonder where she is today, how many great-grandchildren she must have and if she takes Islam seriously. (Fucking an infidel American serviceman is frowned upon by Islam - same as in Christianity). I hope she is as outraged as I at these terrorists. With the changes that could have happened in her life since I knew her as a girl, I can even hope that she too might yell FUCK ISLAM.
That's a great post Shale. I think it's definitely hard at times not to feel like yelling FUCK ISLAM - although I know that there are are many peaceful Muslims in the world who would never sanction the kind of senseless violence we've seen in Paris. My way to resolve the conflicting feelings I have over Islam is to separate the people from the ideology. If I say fuck Islam, I mean the doctrines, not the people who live under them. Often people have no choice. In countries like Saudi Arabia the penalty for criticizing Islam is some form of horrible death. The vast majority of victims of Islam are Muslims. Attacks like this are sure to bring retribution, and thus even more Muslims killed or displaced. So I say FUCK HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSERS! FUCK THOSE WHO WANT TO USE TERROR TO ADVANCE THEIR POLITICAL ENDS! I don't have it in me to say fuck the friendly and polite Pakistani gentleman and his family who run my local shop, even if I disagree with their religious beliefs.
Good Same here. When I nag on islam or christianity I can also say stuff like this. But to be honest I see the beauty in both religions and I know it is in essence the people who abuse religion that make them look so bad. On the other hand, it is often also the other kind of people that make it apparent to me how beautiful religion and its impact can be. Fuck (some) people?
I am conflicted as well. I fear if everyone starts yelling fuck Islam too loudly we'll overlook the millions of peaceful Muslims whose lives and homes have been destroyed by the same group of Islamists who destroyed lives and homes in Paris yesterday. But I also fear if we tip toe around the issue we'll allow Islamic extremists to grow in power simplyfor the sake of being politically correct.
If we have to target anything we have to target islamic extremists and not islam or muslims. In that way I am not really conflicted. Keeping it nuanced and civil is something else than tip toe-ing around it or (an even more nasty way of dismissing what other people sincerely saying) political correctness. But sometimes saying fuck this or that just is the most appropriate way of summarizing things for the time being
Yesterday I posted this journal entry, written the day after the Bad Muslims attacked Paris. I also posted it on facebook. While taking lots of criticism on FB I got mostly understanding and support on Hip. Perhaps more ppl in the counterculture understand what I was trying to convey with "CONFLICTED." I did see some similar sentiments expressed by non-believers who pointed out pretty much that those who express belief in the Holy Bible or Quran are picking out the parts that seem peaceful while ignoring all those dreadful passages that give the haters their credence. If it is the actual word of God or of Allah, can you ignore the unpleasant stuff like killing non-believers, heretics, adulterers, men who lay with men, blasphemers etc. Here is an observation from Richard Dawkins, which may shed light on why I say Fuck Islam or Fuck Christianity or Fuck All Religions. Ppl speak of the peaceful Muslims or Christians, which is fine and good, but FACT is, the Holy Bible (which included the Old Testament) and the Quran are supposedly the core of the religions. These books supposedly revered by the Good Muslims and Good Christians have all those dreadful passages that the Bad Muslims and Bad Christians are following. These are the FUNDAMENTAL Truths of the religion that the fundamentalist Islamists and every whacko fundamentalist Christian are following. These murderers in the name of God's Law or Sharia are the true followers of the religions and everyone who does not subscribe to ALL these horrendous Bronze Age writings are merely posers. Which, is why I stand by my original, inflammatory damning of all religions, especially Islam, which for the moment the Dark Ages adherents of the teachings of the Quran are a deadly anachronism in our modern world.
You're way off. How can you say with certainty who the true followers of the religions are? I disagree completely with this part. In fact, it adds to the polarisation and stigmatisation of the innocent. Good job striving for peace
Logically, it's much easier to make a case for fundamentalism than for liberal forms of religion, where it often seems that people with good intentions are making it up as they go along. My best friend is a liberal christian, so I have to be careful about damning the whole group. It's a very complicated and confusing situation. ISIS is essentially waging a war against tolerance and diversity. You and I are at the opposite end of the spectrum from those guys, waging a nonviolent war against intolerance.
Yes, you're not saying much. Just shared what we already knew: there's a bunch of paragraphs that talk about violence in the Quran. So what? Are we now to convict this whole religion and/or it's followers because of that? That would be ludicrous and nonsensical.
Well, if it was so you might have a point. But it is a big IF. Fact is most sincere muslims didn't and still don't have any intent in acting upon those violent messages. Why not take that in account?
OK, you have a holy book, which you claim is the Word of God. You profess to believe it is the word of god and you are a follower of the religion that holy book represents. The Word of God in your Holy Book tells you that sinners must be punished and lists a bunch of things that a secular society no longer considers sins. If you are a true follower you will carry out those punishments according to your Holy Book, even if it means being punished yourself by the nonbelievers in a secular society. If you do not follow the edicts of your Holy Book you are not a true follower of that religion. That was how it was done up to the Enlightenment of Europe and other European Christian societies. You couldn't get that from my post and the quote from Dawkins. The Good Muslims are neglecting a large part of the Quran - just ignoring what Mohammad wrote. The "bad" Muslims are following the edicts to the letter. Same with Christians who quote the parts of the Old Testament that they consider sins but ignore the parts that apply to them.
They are Taught That If they Disagree With These Teachings Then They CANT be Sincere Muslims So What you Are Saying is that These NICE Muslims are not true Muslims ? We are Going Round in Circles Here I will ask At work Tomorrow For An Explanation !!
Ok Shale, so you are saying the medieval approach and how the spanish Inquisition interpreted it is the only way to be a true follower of the christian religion? Uhm, guess what... it's not so. Would be nice if it was that simple right. This rigid logic (which in most cases seems merely an attempt to have a solid excuse to dismiss the whole religion) does not work in reality. There are many different kinds of true believers of the abrahamic religions, wether you or me acknowledge that or not
