Communism?

Discussion in 'U.K.' started by L.A.Matthews, Apr 10, 2007.

  1. lithium

    lithium frogboy

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    Yes, there are obviously cases where experience is a very important factor in getting to the truth. But in the case of gaining a general understanding of the political and socio-economic conditions of an entire country - these are things beyond the capabilities of one person's experience, and proper study and research are far better tools for getting to the heart of the matter than experiencing a small part of it.

    For instance, I'd say I know far more about Britain's political and socio-economic conditions from reading about it than I could ever understand from my own experience, and I've lived here most of my life. In fact, the evidence of my own experience is directly contradictory to some of the things I know about this country! If you're unlucky enough to be a victim of crime or live in a particularly rough neighbourhood you'll think that crime rates in general are much higher than they really are, for instance.

    Eyewitness reports and personal experience are interesting and valuable, but they should never be taken as authoritative or factual; they are just another source, and in many cases a less reliable source of information than others.
     
  2. BraveSirRubin

    BraveSirRubin Members

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    Andy... percentage of millionaires does not mean much... but it does mean that the country is progressing capitalistically (that being good or bad is another issue).


    Lithium...

    I think both you and Sal are taking my point a tad too generally.

    Let try to elaborate on what I mean...

    Taking the USSR, per example... lots of foreign people have this idealised view of communism and of Russia. You know, they all read Lenin and Trotsky, say that Russia was good because if helped win WWII, give a bunch of examples of this and that...

    But honestly... they did not live inside Russia, they could not possibly know how the people suffered. You can read a million articles about suffering, yet you cannot truly know what it's like unless you're there.

    They can surely make a good argument about it... but honestly... take my mother per example... best student in her university, awfully smart... couldn't get a job because of one thing... she's Jewish... had to live in poverty, stand in bread lines, work in a clinic and take a tram for 3 hours just to get there, there was no food in the supermarkets (other than lots of caviar, but you can't survive on caviar), you HAD to be a part of the KGB youth, or you'd be shot, you had to be an atheist or you'd be shot. My father's father (well... the man who adopted my father when he was 2) was the head od the KGB in Lithuania... which means that my father was forced to serve in the KGB... they made him stalk Jewish families to see if they were plotting to escape from the USSR... this eventually drove him to insanity, and they still wouldn't let him go...

    And this was in the 70s and 80s...

    ...and I could tell you hundreds of other stories... they may all be subjective... but honestly, you take a couple of real-life stories from the USSR... stories backed by facts... and they are by FAR more powerful than any wanker's logically phrased argument.

    Honestly... fuck someone who tried to tell an ex-soviet Russia resident that it "wasn't all that bad".
     
  3. Pixieface

    Pixieface Member

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    i agree sir ruben these people going on about being all for a system that has its people livin in fear and poverty get real!!!! i can go outside right now and start shouting my ass off about how i hate the president of my country and theres sh1t all anyone can do about it you dont have that little luxery in a communist country!!!
     
  4. Peace-Phoenix

    Peace-Phoenix Senior Member

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    In this case your family's experience may well back up the facts, and I've not once sung the praises of the Soviet Union, though I realise that your point was addressed to Kollontai. Nevertheless a more general point about the merits of research over experience should be made in light of this thread. Earlier you questioned my competence to talk about Cuba because I hadn't been there, and Pixiefied seemed to think the fact that I hadn't been to Venezuela undermined my extensive research into the country and its politics. Actually I know a lot about both countries, I'm a student of Latin American politics. Too often people place too much value on subjective experience when, as Lithium said, objective research is the most valuable means of gaining knowledge....
     
  5. BraveSirRubin

    BraveSirRubin Members

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    I am not saying that you do not know your Cuba (or Venezuela) facts.

    I am saying that you do not know what it feels like to live there.

    Which makes it impossible for you to say if Communism is actually "good" or "bad" for the common person. You can make a million empirical observations, and they can all be true... but it still does not mean that you know that Communism is good for the people. It might be good for the country, sure... but we both know that what's good for the country is not always good for the people in the country.
     
  6. Pixieface

    Pixieface Member

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    well everyone has their own opinion but personally i like it in the western world i have nothing to complain about that doesnt mean i dont see the injustices that sourround us coz i do!!
    someone said eariler that people in 3rd world countries took on the communist revolution why? coz their poor.of course poor people are gonna have an easier time accepting communism. when you have nothing and some guy stands up and says we are all gonna own everything!well that sounds good to someone who has nothing doesnt it?
     
  7. Kollontai

    Kollontai Member

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    i repeat again, communist states were not at communist stage which karl marx suggested. and i myself strongly stick with someone who are strongly against communist states and agree with them without doubts.

    communism is a political ideal. to large extent, chinese leaders were not communist at all and they were nationalists. karl marx never explicitly stated or suggested the role of vanguard of the people which was invented by Lenin who was unwelcomed by most communists at his time. for marx, he seems suggested after political consciousness of working class awear, it means they awear the society is unfair and then revolution begin. in fact, every so called communist states were not highly industrialized country, and revolutions were leaded by communist parties rather than widely supported by working class. and in the case of china, chairman mao leaded peasents rather than working class. for marx, he never suggested revolution should be leaded by a group of elite which called communist party. communist stage of history should be anarchy!!!! and marx suggested a socialist government before communist stage, a socialist government in which working class dominated.
     
  8. BraveSirRubin

    BraveSirRubin Members

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    Take Russia's communist revolution. It was the working class versus the aristocracy (Reds vs. Whites, Bolshevicks vs. Menshevicks, Opposition vs. Supporters of the king, etc)...

    Ofcourse there is always someone leading the way, a leader, a party, anything... people cannot simply revolt by themselves without a leader, people are weak and need direction, especially if a revolution is to be accomplished.
     
  9. moonhawk

    moonhawk Member

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    Communism works, in theory. But in reality it doesn't. Take China for example. There are people their who have been killed for standing infront of buildoser that was about to destroy their village! Communism is based on fairness and equality but eventually it just tails off into facism and beurocrasy.

    Those are the reasons why I am unsure, purely because it is unreliable.
     
  10. sentient

    sentient Senior Member

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    Communism is a pile of wank that accepts society needs 1000 years of socialism before communism can be achieved. Better off with anarchists who want to take you straight to communism with no intervening socialism
     
  11. Kollontai

    Kollontai Member

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    there were two revolutions in 1917, and the fact was communist party in russia was minority, it is strange that u seems claim u know russia better than everyone else here because u lived there. however, u don't know russia history well. to large extent, communist party(Bolshevicks) was a small party, before lenin died, ordinary people in russia never known wtf he was, and people in russia recognized populists more than Bolshevicks,Menshevicks. feburary revolution started from international women's day in which women in capital of russia went out to street spontaneously without any organization. the fact was communist party was a group without popular support.
     
  12. BraveSirRubin

    BraveSirRubin Members

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    No, there were 3 Revolutions:

    The Revolution of 1905, which began the anti-monarchy movement.

    The February revolution which de-throned Nicholas the II and the October Revolution when those evil commies took control. (1917)

    and then... what is referred to as the "Third Revolution", between 1918-and hm... 1921 or 22... with an attempt to overthrow the evil commies.

    The Feb revolution is not the Bolshevick/Menshevick conflict, the October revolution is.

    ...and people not knowing of Lenin before his death? You must be joking. He LED the October revolution.
     
  13. Kollontai

    Kollontai Member

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    let me tell u a story. during civil war, lenin's car was robbered by people on the street.... in that case, no one recognized him and he was safe. u could read books which wrote by scholars in the west, u will know more about the history. max webber wrote a book about 1905 revolution, in his book, communist even did not be considered at length. communists were small unpopular political group in russia.... if u need references, i would point them out to u.
     
  14. BraveSirRubin

    BraveSirRubin Members

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    Ofcourse Communists were unpopular at the point of the 1905 Revolution... they barely existed!

    I'm not talking about the 1905 Revolution!
     
  15. saffronfrancisburnet

    saffronfrancisburnet Member

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    hi there just saw this thread

    being a socialist which came from the ideas and forward thinking
    of believers of communism
    i have to disagree with alot said against communism

    until one system is world wide. each man living under that system, will we really know what is to work.
    so many believe profit is good. this is the problem
    each and every human should be equal in living standards equal pay lets say...
    health education what ever you wish to be
    in a capitalists system those with upperclass or middleclass
    living standards have a much better chance of living..
    not only do governments profit from poverty still, they
    profit from ill health..low education.giving them the work force to forward war mongering ideas....
    not all want what others need but to have the freedom to live is a right of all humans .no one is any better really.

    i believe that to break class divide and change the way people think towards the human race only then will a system start
    to follow the human races need for change.
    but as it stands capitalism is so inground so
    forwarded on tv and in all walks of life. we may
    need a revolution but world wide together..
    as i believe
    not for the millionairs but the millions....
    enough said for i may offend with my opinions
    war is a cover for misunderstandings in parts of the world
    where poverty and lower levels of living are rife..
    this could change.

    with the steps towards a equal system for all....

    i look around and see the older humans fighting
    to pay bills, why .they worked hard they lived through
    wars over uk skies
    why are our youths not learning about life and love and others
    instead of racism and hate....
    the system allows this crime....
    tax payers pay the police....
    poilce arrest the youths.. who ever
    they want what is out of reach..
    so the system works well for those fat cats
    but not our future adults.......

    peace is easy if a change is allowed...

    thats all really, the system works for the few
    the ones who live life in comfort .......
    lovenpeace from saff

    i believe socialsm can work once all is achieved world wide
    to bring all people together equal as man woman human..

    ps

    communists and socialists didnt believe in slavery
    or class divide which is the real problem....
    it only effects the poorer people ..this is wrong...
     
  16. Kollontai

    Kollontai Member

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    personally, i don;t agree with lenin's notion of communism or socialism. and again, someone misunderstand political ideal is neccessarily reponse or accout for poltical movement and history . and again, lenin and his group were unpopular even in 1917. for karl marx, he strongly insisted that only working class themselve could indentify evil of soceity which in contradiction with soviet model of communist party.

    who wants a rational discussion must be careful about what the hell we are dicussing ? for those communist states, they never said they are in the stage of communism. in addition, many communist states showed there were other commitments to them, especially nationalism. for marx, he said working class doesn't have mothercountry.

    it is completely misleading to claim there are million of bad cases in ussr, so that it is a bad country or political system. on the other hand, there are millions of racial discriminations in the states too, is usa as evil as ussr? because if someone becames black instead of jew in usa, then he will rececive discrimination. and claimed millionaries in russia is highest in % without any proof.

    look at the fact, GDP in former ussr have dropped,economy collapsed, ever increasing unemployment rate, gini conefficiency is increasing. and the fact is living standard in eastern europe was that bad as someone imagined. yeah, there were hardships in ussr, worse except like some people, they have money, they left there. however, everything becames xcept those privileged people who left there will claim nowsaday russia is better. even people from east germany, a lot of them want the hell which someone regard comes back!!

    can u agree with russia is a democratic country? in fact, their spies have acted like former ussr in everywhere, kill political enemies.

    and i strongly disagree with someone claimed people agree with communism are readers of lenin or someone else. i never read lenin's writtings. and i would like to point out it is misconceptualizaion of communism and limited it to lenin's notions.
     
  17. Kollontai

    Kollontai Member

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    to be honest, i lived in communist states which someone may regard as communism.
     

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